Max Lucado.

Again, the fear of man is a sin, Rev. 21:8. But the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

If Jesus feared, it was not that He feared the physical tortures of the crucifixion, or anything that man could do to Him. He feared God.

We are left with no alternative.

 

Aaron,
With all due respect, to say that Jesus did not experience any normal human fear, facing what He was facing, is to minimize the humanity of Christ to the point that it would have been almost non-existent. I do not think that any "human" could face crucifixion without some fear.

The important thing is that Jesus did not give into that fear.

 

1. Just because humans do something does not mean that the Son of God HAD to also. Do you simply assume that Christ had to do and experience what you do and experience for him to be a real human? Nice job of centering Christ around you there.

2. None of that has to do with fear, SBC. Remember, that as an infant, he held the universe together. He never "feared" anything that we assume infants fear.

Personally, if my power was such that I could hold the universe in place, nothing would be greater.

3. Your first statement is absolute truth. Your second is mere speculation on your part. He did not experience sin and was still completely human.

4. Nice cop-out. You are trying to assert that Jesus feared. Since Scripture in no way backs you up, you have the burden to demonstrate your ideas. Otherwise, you might be adding to God's revelation. Again, he did not sin and was still completely human.

 

To say that he was ever fearful though is pure conjecture if not a more serious charge. [/QB][/QUOTE]

I suppose scripture does not prove that He feared but I don't think it proves He didn't. I believe the poster who said it shows His humanity is right. You can say conjecture if you like but if you feel my thoughts are deserving of some kind of "charge" I would love for you to make the charge so I would atleast know what crime I am accused of.

Murph

 

My argument with you is in no way a sign of disrespect.

What do you call normal? That which is commonly experienced by a fallen race? We need to be careful not to transfer our fallen tendencies to Christ. As I said above, we no longer know Christ according to the flesh, and the preoccupation with His human nature is unscriptural. The Scriptures give us what we need to know about His humanity, and that is enough to know that He was touched with the feeling our weaknesses—yet without sin.

But what saith the Scriptures? Fear of anything or anyone but God is always presented in the Scriptures as an evidence of weak faith. And what of the Scriptures I cited earlier. It is exactly this "normal human fear" that is our undoing, who through fear of death are all our lifetime subject to bondage, Heb. 2:15.

Christ Himself told us NOT to fear them that can kill the body only, but to fear Him who can destroy both the body and soul in Hell.

Did Christ command something that He could not do Himself?

That Christ feared is plainly set forth in the Scriptures:

What did Christ fear? Only that which would be good, holy and righteous to fear, the fiery indignation and righteous judgment of God.

 

Your burden of proof not mine.
You need to show evidence where Jesus endured certain human emotions (such as sorrow, joy, grief) but did not experience others (fear). You are evidently picking and choosing which human emotions Jesus faced, so it is your task to offer evidence.

But it has everything thing to do with the reality of Jesus' humanity. It is almost humorous how you accuse others of speculation and then you make statements such as: He never "feared" anything that we assume infants fear.

We can only assume Jesus endured every non-sinful human emotion that is basic to the human construct. There is no scriptural evidence to the contrary, but there is sufficient evidence that his humanity was absolute and full.

Irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about non-sinful human emotions that are natural to the human construct.

Again your reasoning amuses me. Are you the one who was trying to get others to engage in meaningful debate in another thread? The burden of proof lies with the one who is making the assertion that contradicts the norm.

Jesus was 100% human.
Fear is a natural human (non-sinful) emotion.

What is the natural deduction here?

You want to argue against the norm, so you have the burden of proof.

BTW, you have no biblical evidence that Jesus nursed, urinated, fell and skinned his knee, swam as a child, wrestled, got a blister on his hand, felt full after a meal, or a multitude of other human emotions and actions. Should we also eliminate these elements of his humanity?

Who is trying to cop-out? Just provide your biblical evidence that Jesus was completely human in every arena of life except for the fact he never experienced fear.

 

SBC, you assume that fear is not sinful.

God has given to believers an attitude that is not fear but power, love, and a sound mind.

Of course, the burden is not on me to defend everyone who calls himself "evangelical (whatever that means) because I refuse to draw lines.

 

1. Let us leave the arguments from silence to the babysprinklers.

2. I believe you are wrong. His humanity never touched on sinfulness, Murph. Oh, and this has nothing to do with Calvinism. Thanks.

3. Consider what John said in 1 John 4. Perfect love casts out all fear. Now, if God is love, and he is perfect in all ways, I don't consider it a stretch to say that Christ, being both man AND God, never in any way feared.

Btw, no one is attacking you CSMurphy. I don't know what crime you are alluding to.

[edited to replace personal name with screen name]

[ March 22, 2003, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

Funny, I was always taught that courage was being afraid but pushing though it.

 

Sez who?

 

Tentmaker and rsr thanks for the info. I stand corrected. The Churches of Christ must not be pleased with Lucado's Baptist leanings.

 

Way to avoid the points I raised. I have noticed on occasion your tendency to drop out of the discussion when challenged to defend your assertions. So I shouldn't be surprised.

Is a Christian soldier who may be on the front lines of the war and about to invade hostile territory and face enemy fire commiting in sin if he has a sense of fear???

You refuse to draw lines??? It is amazing how some can live so deep in the box that they cannot see the lines.

 

In Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Gospel of Mark 14:33-34 33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy; 34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch. he comments,

 

Sez who? </font>[/QUOTE]If you maintain Jesus did not experience a normal human emotion, it is your burden of proof (if you believe he was 100% human). I can't believe this question is even being debated (as to the burden of proof).

Besides the actions & emotions I have already cited that are not provided in Scripture, should we say Jesus did not laugh because we do not find it in the text???

 

SBC, all of your points assume that fear is not a sinful emotion.

I have post two passages that indicate it is not from God.

I suggest you reread what I said about drawing lines.

If the discussion cannot get past the nature of fear, do you not agree that it is fruitless to continue?

 

Since obviously you do not want to deal with the issues that have been raised, answer one question: Is it a sin to be afraid of something or someone other than God?

 

SBC, that was answered several posts ago. Get to the point.

 

Yes or no will suffice.

 

Aaron,
You said, "My argument with you is in no way a sign of disrespect."

I did not, for one minute, think that anything you said was disrespectful. I was simply being careful so that you did not think that I was being disrespectful to you.