Maybe this will clear up the "Sovereignty" issue

[Jeep Dragon]

A couple questions on Sovereignty and free-will

1. If God is not the author of sin can the very existence of sin indicate a created free-will capability?

2. If the forbidden tree was the tree of the knowledge of good AND evil, doesn't that mean that a sin-filled man can make a simple choice of belief that seems good and logical to him that God will develop once he is saved?

3. Can suggesting that God has to control choices in order to be sovereign be a limitation of Sovereignty? Couldn't God give man a choice in order to put man to blame for going to hell while at the same time paying for all sin and making the way to heaven free for everyone to give Him the credit for man going to heaven?

4. When the Bible says "lest any man should boast" is the context referring to a believer boasting to another believer of how he earned his way, or is it a believer boasting to a non-believer that he was wise enough to believe while the non-believer wasn't?

 

[AAA]

Also look @ 2nd post n response 2 this 1...

1. If God is not the author of sin can the very existence of sin indicate a created free-will capability?

Yes...

2. If the forbidden tree was the tree of the knowledge of good AND evil, doesn't that mean that a sin-filled man can make a simple choice of belief that seems good and logical to him that God will develop once he is saved?

Yes, because GOD is soveriegn

3. A. Can suggesting that God has to control choices in order to be sovereign be a limitation of Sovereignty? B. Couldn't God give man a choice in order to put man to blame for going to hell while at the same time paying for all sin and making the way to heaven free for everyone to give Him the credit for man going to heaven?

A. NO
B. All credit for salvation will go to HIM for saving His children by HIS grace.

4. When the Bible says "lest any man should boast" is the context referring to a believer boasting to another believer of how he earned his way, or is it a believer boasting to a non-believer that he was wise enough to believe while the non-believer wasn't?

This is in refference to: "a believer boasting to another believer of how he earned his way".

This will be cotinued on my 2nd post to this response of yours.........

:godisgood:

 

[AAA]

Do you believe that I am a calvinist? If so I hope that this will help....

Originally Posted by GordonSlocum in the thread: "Calvinism is true"?
Are you like Nicodemus, wanting to be a secret "Free Willer"?

Originally Posted by AAA in the thread: "Calvinism is true"?

I like to keep people guessing....lol

I am not a calvinist by any means, even though I do tend to come through as a calvinist in my postings...For Ex.: Did you see my post "Free will is TRUE", It is almost the same as this one. I think that I may have made SKYPAIR:confused rather or not I am a calvinist. His post seems to indicate that he thinks that I am a calvinist...lol

"Free will is TRUE"...........
Check out Skypair's post.....I hope that they will respond to what I posted in reply to his/her reply........
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=37617

But, I do not want to be considered as a "free willer" eithier, because there are different definitions on this board to what a "free willer" is to be defined. Plus, I know to many "free willers" that I can not see as believing "salvation is by the GRACE of God", and how can I reconize those "free willers" as brothers/sisters in Christ. I can't. I am NOT saying that all free willers (and calvinist for that matter) are lost, but I think very few are saved. God is our judge and who HE saves shall be saved, and those He does not save shall not be saved........

Most Calvinist that I have talked to would agree to some degree that God has given men "free will" or a "moral agentcy", but I think that our will/chioces are very limited by the soveriegnty of GOD...In other words: If we do have a "free will", it is not much of one........

I like the post: A Calvinist who believes in free will...

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=37632

Well, I hope that you will keep my "secret"...lol

:godisgood:

 

[russell55]

1. If God is not the author of sin can the very existence of sin indicate a created free-will capability?

It depends on what you mean by free will. If you mean, did Adam choose to sin without anything compelling him to do so, then the answer is yes.

2. If the forbidden tree was the tree of the knowledge of good AND evil, doesn't that mean that a sin-filled man can make a simple choice of belief that seems good and logical to him that God will develop once he is saved?

The condition of Adam in the garden before the fall is different than the condition of humankind after the fall, so the conclusions we make about Adam's capabilities before the fall cannot be assumed to be the same as the capabilities of people after the fall.

3. Can suggesting that God has to control choices in order to be sovereign be a limitation of Sovereignty?

The very definition of being sovereign is being in control. To the extent that God limits his control of anything (if he does), he is limiting his sovereignty over that thing. By definition.

Couldn't God give man a choice in order to put man to blame for going to hell

He does, and man is to blame.

while at the same time paying for all sin

Whatever sin is paid for, man is no longer blamed for. The blame for that sin is placed on Christ in the process of his paying for that sin.

and making the way to heaven free for everyone to give Him the credit for man going to heaven?

Christ does get all the credit for anyone who goes to heaven. He's the one who took their blame and paid for their sin, and everyone for whom the blame is removed goes to heaven.

4. When the Bible says "lest any man should boast" is the context referring to a believer boasting to another believer of how he earned his way, or is it a believer boasting to a non-believer that he was wise enough to believe while the non-believer wasn't?

I'm not sure it specifies who the boasting is to. I'd say it includes even boasting to oneself by not understanding that we are the same as all the rest except for the grace of God, the mercy of God. Boasting in the sense of thinking (or saying) that we are saved because we did something good that the non-believer didn't do.

 

[skypair]

Jeep

1. If God is not the author of sin can the very existence of sin indicate a created free-will capability?

2. If the forbidden tree was the tree of the knowledge of good AND evil, doesn't that mean that a sin-filled man can make a simple choice of belief that seems good and logical to him that God will develop once he is saved?

3. Can suggesting that God has to control choices in order to be sovereign be a limitation of Sovereignty? Couldn't God give man a choice in order to put man to blame for going to hell while at the same time paying for all sin and making the way to heaven free for everyone to give Him the credit for man going to heaven?

4. When the Bible says "lest any man should boast" is the context referring to a believer boasting to another believer of how he earned his way, or is it a believer boasting to a non-believer that he was wise enough to believe while the non-believer wasn't?

I think your theology is very good!

Adam was not much different from us in nature -- just different at one time in relationship to God.

The "boasting" accusation is a huge Cavlinist "smoke screen." God DOES want us to go and give our testimony to others but the Calvinists apparently take that for "boasting." Go figure!

skypair

 

[russell55]

The "boasting" accusation is a huge Cavlinist "smoke screen."God DOES want us to go and give our testimony to others but the Calvinists apparently take that for "boasting." Go figure!

What would make you think Calvinists don't want people to give their testimony? Or that giving one's testimony is boasting? Giving one's testimony is saying what God has done for us, not what we've done for ourselves. It's boasting in the Lord, or boasting in Christ's work. It is giving glory to God.

Unless of course, your testimony consists entirely of "I'm saved because I believed." Unless your testimony is "The only difference between me and you is that I believed." Unless your testimony is "I am saved because I fulfilled the requirement to believe." Or "the hinge my salvation turned on was my faith." If that's the case, then your testimony is boasting, and exactly the sort of boasting the apostle Paul warns about:

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Our salvation is the work of God, it is by his doing . . .

so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

So when you give your testimony of salvation, you shouldn't be testifying about what you did, but about what God did.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Jeep good to meet you.

1. If God is not the author of sin can the very existence of sin indicate a created free-will capability?

But God is the Author of sin and He has free will. If free will includes being free of God's will then the scriptures are plain on the matter, DA 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?"

2. If the forbidden tree was the tree of the knowledge of good AND evil, doesn't that mean that a sin-filled man can make a simple choice of belief that seems good and logical to him that God will develop once he is saved?

No. It is dismissed by scripture. PR 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

Belief is a work and we are saved by grace not works.

3. Can suggesting that God has to control choices in order to be sovereign be a limitation of Sovereignty? Couldn't God give man a choice...

You cannot prove Sovereignty by giving it away can you? God can't help but control all things and this 'can't' increases His Sovereignty. Sovereignty is in the choice. If the man is free to choose is he free from God? If he is free from God then he has free will and God cannot be Sovereign, the man is.

What if a man makes a free choice that accords with God's will? I see no difference. A man choosing his own destiny makes him master of his own fate. Slaves are not allowed choices.

...in order to put man to blame for going to hell while at the same time paying for all sin and making the way to heaven free for everyone to give Him the credit for man going to heaven?

Sounds nice doesn't it? But what happens to RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. And what happens to, God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.? Rom 9:18. PR 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

4. When the Bible says "lest any man should boast" is the context referring to a believer boasting to another believer of how he earned his way, or is it a believer boasting to a non-believer that he was wise enough to believe while the non-believer wasn't?

Eph 2:9 is about boasting that one had belief while another has none. God takes that away from us in saving us by grace. Belief is a work. Faith comes with rebirth as rebirth brings faith.

john.

 

[skypair]

johnp

Please don't foul up the thread with rubbish.

You've been shown time and again that belief is NOT a work, Rom 4:5.

man having free choice does NOT make him "master of his own fate," and you KNOW it! His fate is still up to God. God's sovereignty is in His control of outcomes -- consequences of men's choices. Even His having "mercy on whom He will" is a consequence by which God forgives men's choices.

And your INTERPRETATION of Eph 2:9 is totally spurious! What man or woman boasts of saving him/herself? The one who "works" brags while the one who BELIEVES ("worketh not") is the one who truly gives God the glory.

skypair

 

[GordonSlocum]

Sounds nice doesn't it? But what happens to RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. And what happens to, God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.? Rom 9:18. PR 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

Don't forget Romans 11:32 which is the conclusion of this highly controversial section of Scripture. The conclusion is the answer and the only part that really matters.

Concerning desire:

(1) God is in control of all - no one disputes that - its our perception that differs.
(2) Because God is in control does not negate mans responsibility. To tell God he can permit man to respond to His Grace is limiting God's sovereignty.
(3) If God did not have mercy then man's desire would mean absolutely nothing. So yes mans desire can not save him independent of God's desire and mercy.
(4) God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth
Also read I Tim. 2:1-7

 

[johnp.]

Hello skypair.

Please don't foul up the thread with rubbish.

It ain't rubbish is it?

You've been shown time and again that belief is NOT a work, Rom 4:5.

How could you show me that faith is not a work when Jesus says it is? Are you greater than Him? I don't mind if you tell me over and over until you are blue in the face do I, it don't bother me none? If I was looking for your compliments but I am not.
JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
Show me a man that says faith is not a work and I'll show you God who says it is. "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

The work? To believe. That rubbish do you mean? I don't care for the silly games. Belief is faith and everybody knows that. It is only those climbing over the wall who want belief separated from faith for their own fancy.
Correcting God and reading my mind, whatever next, replacing the moderator?

Please don't foul up the thread with rubbish.

...man having free choice does NOT make him "master of his own fate," and you KNOW it!

If he is not master of his own fate then he cannot be sovereign can he? If he isn't master of his own destiny what's the free choice?

God's sovereignty is in His control of outcomes -- consequences of men's choices. Even His having "mercy on whom He will" is a consequence by which God forgives men's choices.

A God that is at the end of the train instead of the One at the front?

Running around after us picking up the peices?

The bold above doesn't make any sense but I'm sure if it did it wouldn't make any sense. Are you saying mercy is contingent on something man does?

And your INTERPRETATION of Eph 2:9 is totally spurious!

Eph 2:9 is about boasting that one had belief while another has none. God takes that away from us in saving us by grace. Belief is a work. Faith comes with rebirth as rebirth brings faith.

Could you not rise yourself to explain how?

What man or woman boasts of saving him/herself?

People like you and all free willers old chap. The one's who think that their soil was good enough for the seed to take root in before rebirth. That their hearts were not as stoney before rebirth, whose ears could hear before rebirth and those with eyes to see before they were born again. The one's that can do the impossible, supermen, giants. LK 18:26 Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?" 27 Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."

Does that answer your question man?

LK 18:26 Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?" 27 Jesus replied, "Only those that have belief." Is this a new revelation skypair?

The one who "works" brags while the one who BELIEVES ("worketh not") is the one who truly gives God the glory.

"The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

john.

 

[johnp.]

(4) God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

Why does He create men for Hell if He doesn't want any to go there GordonSlocum? RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...

john.

 

[npetreley]

RE: Maybe this will clear up the "Sovereignty" issue

So... did this thread clear up the "Sovereignty" issue?

 

[skypair]

RE: Maybe this will clear up the "Sovereignty" issue

So... did this thread clear up the "Sovereignty" issue?

Actually, npeterely, mine was cleared up on another thread but I thought I could "close the gap" with Calvinists by opening another post to try to clarify the issue that is so rancorous between us. To some extent, I seem to have succeeded among mine own kin but not among Calvinists -- which is a shame.

It is quite simple and eloquent really. Many Calvinists SAY they see both free will and sovereignty/predestination in scriptures -- free willers agree!

Calvinists SAY that when God's will isn't done, that is God's "permissive will." But for our side, that would be FREE will operating in opposition to God. We both see that God "permits" this and yet loses NONE of His sovereignty, does He?

The reason He loses NONE of His sovereingty is because He is sovereign over the OUTCOMES -- over the CONSEQUENCES of our right and wrong choices.

This construct works great with situations like Pharoah or clay or Jonah or just about any you can think of where choices went against God but ended up glorifying Him.

But, alas, Calvinists cannot relent from their dogma. They want to keep total sovereignty and permissive will and send us poor free willers "packing" for our Christ-like efforts at reconciliation and scriptural teaching.

And, sadly, there is another issue that gets misconstrued by Calvinists that enters into the debate -- determinism vs ordination. Determinism teaches that God decides/predestines everything beforehand -- ordination (which free will agrees God does) teaches that God lets stand what He foresaw us do and went right ahead with His plans and purposes for creation.

skypair

 

[johnp.]

It is quite simple and eloquent really. Many Calvinists SAY they see both free will and sovereignty/predestination in scriptures -- free willers agree!

That is not how it is is it skypair. If Calvinists talk of free will they will never say that this will is free from God will they?

Anyway, I just thought this would be a good place to refresh this.

(4) God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

Why does He create men for Hell if He doesn't want any to go there GordonSlocum? RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...

That was a quote and a response to GordonSlocum. I have been expecting an answer to this question and up till now no one has responded surprisingly enough. This question needs an answer from anyone who believes in free will. This question without an answer does for free will. What am I missing? Why do I think there is no escape except but in ignoring it? If you have no reply at least say, then you will stop misleading others into thinking they have a thing going for themselves.

We both see that God "permits" this and yet loses NONE of His sovereignty, does He?

He permits nothing He determines everything therefore His Sovereignty remains intact.

john.

 

[skypair]

Why does He create men for Hell if He doesn't want any to go there.

Ah -- you don't know the truth, do you? God created hell for the fallen angels. Hell actually "expands itself" (Isa 5:14) in order to accomodate each sinner that dies without Christ! Put that in your theology and "smoke it" awhile! :laugh:

He permits nothing He determines everything therefore His Sovereignty remains intact.

That would do it, but He figured out a better way, johnp. He created options with controlled consequences so that those who would trust Him would know their destiny and so that those who didn't choose Him would be forewarned! That's at least better than the formulation man/Calvin has thought up. God's is less like man and more like God!

skypair

 

[johnp.]

Why does He create men for Hell if He doesn't want any to go there.

is the question i asked please answer it. i will be challenging all free willers with this as it demolishes all doctrines that oppose the grace of God and it does it without doctrine.


john. "All doctrines except those that hold God is not omniscient."

 

[johnp.]

Why does He create men for Hell if He doesn't want any to go there?

Ah -- you don't know the truth, do you?

Why does He create men for Hell if He doesn't want any to go there?

God created hell for the fallen angels.

It says God 'prepared' Hell for the fallen angels.

Hell actually "expands itself"

How come you know what it does? I don't see this in the bible? Where did you come by this piece of info, I haven't heard this among the fairy stories so you just made it up? Great, I love to find the source. What do I care what it does as there will be room enough for sure. We have run out of prison space here in the UK but I think God has planned the size of it just right because He knows how many are going there doesn't He?

Why does He create men for Hell if He doesn't want any to go there?

He permits nothing He determines everything therefore His Sovereignty remains intact.

That would do it, but He figured out a better way, johnp.

How can there be a better way than having God control everything that happens? Don't like it do you?

LK 14:31 "Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32 If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33 In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.

You don't have to like it.

He created options with controlled consequences so that those who would trust Him would know their destiny and so that those who didn't choose Him would be forewarned!

He permits nothing He determines everything therefore His Sovereignty remains intact.

Why warn someone when they are going to Hell anyway?

Why does He create men for Hell if He doesn't want any to go there?

Why create Hell if He doesn't want any to go there?

That's at least better than the formulation man/Calvin has thought up.

Free will is better? In which way? Can a man who God knows is going to Hell change anything?

God's is less like man and more like God!

But men are being transformed into His image. Not all men though.

john.

 

[skypair]

It says God 'prepared' Hell for the fallen angels.

2Pet 2:4 I believe.

How come you know what it does? I don't see this in the bible?

Is this an admission that you didn't look up Isa 5:14? Or that you are theologically blind to it? Here, let me take some of this mud, rub it on your eyes. Then you to as wash in the waters of Shalom (Jesus). Then go tell the priests that you see! :laugh:

What do I care what it does as there will be room enough for sure. We have run out of prison space here in the UK but I think God has planned the size of it just right because He knows how many are going there doesn't He?

What do you care? Do you care if you have a God who tells the truth -- that He "so loved the WORLD?" Would He, loving the world, prepare a place for anyone before they had rejected Him?

He permits nothing He determines everything therefore His Sovereignty remains intact.

That would be one way to do it, Hitler (do you think by repetition, a lie will be made true?

How can there be a better way than having God control everything that happens? Don't like it do you?

Having Him control the outcomes while we control our choices. Seems to me, that is what God has done.

Why warn someone when they are going to Hell anyway?

It's called offering the gospel of peace and reconciliation, john. Accept or decline. It's up to you.

The rest appears to be redundant, john. You're bloviating. :laugh: Grasp what you can while you can, my friend.

skypair

 

[johnp.]

This is your proof that Hell expands according to how many go there? Cool skypair.
ISA 5:14 Therefore the grave enlarges its appetite and opens its mouth without limit...

Or that you are theologically blind to it?

In the land of the blind the one eyed man is servant not mocker surely.

Here, let me take some of this mud, rub it on your eyes. Then you to as wash in the waters of Shalom (Jesus). Then go tell the priests that you see!

And this is new age evangelism is it? Cool man. Where do priests hang out these days?

What do you care?

Yes, what do I care about the mechanics of Hell? I asked the wrong person though silly me. I'll answer it now, I don't care.

Do you care if you have a God who tells the truth -- that He "so loved the WORLD?"

2TI 2:14 Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

Now deal with the fact that God creates people bound for Hell and I'll tell the priest you sent me.

Would He, loving the world, prepare a place for anyone before they had rejected Him?

Now deal with the fact that God creates people bound for Hell and I'll tell the priest you sent me.
He permits nothing He determines everything therefore His Sovereignty remains intact.

That would be one way to do it, Hitler...

That's more like it but Hitler is put in the shade by the Sovereign Lord. The Despot of Despots. No man rules alone.

...(do you think by repetition, a lie will be made true?

No but it gains acceptance. Look at the way free will has insinuated itself into the Church that condemned it as heresy. A little yeast works through the whole batch and has done so. Even Calvinists believe in free will.

Having Him control the outcomes while we control our choices. Seems to me, that is what God has done.

Sovereign man and his servant god? Tidying up after us.

Why warn someone when they are going to Hell anyway? And I thought, "Why have I writen that?" So I had a think and I thought, "Ah!"

It's called offering the gospel of peace and reconciliation, john. Accept or decline. It's up to you.

Why offer the gospel to people He knows are going to Hell, He does know all things does He not? Why then make an offer if that offer is certain to be rejected and why did He create that person as that person was certainly going to Hell. Now tell me where the love is in that please. That's why.

The rest appears to be redundant, john. You're bloviating.

bloviating I am not aware of this word, what does it mean?

Grasp what you can while you can, my friend.

Get a grip? Is this :laugh: the way to talk to friends?

john.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Why debate over whether God is sovereign or not. Of course He is sovereign. Therefore, He chooses what role man will have in his (man's) destiny. Are some of you saying that God can't choose to allow man to have free will? That seems to be limiting the sovereignty of God. I don't believe we can pretend to know God's ways. We should just attempt to obey His commandments in the Bible. A lot of these sovereignty arguments just don't seem to be Biblically based but rather trying to gain a theological advantage over someone else.