Maybe this will clear up the "Sovereignty" issue

[skypair]

Why debate over whether God is sovereign or not. Of course He is sovereign. ... A lot of these sovereignty arguments just don't seem to be Biblically based but rather trying to gain a theological advantage over someone else.

You're right, SAN. Sovereignty is a "derived" concept and in order to breath truth into it, it MUST account for the biblical truths of 1) "predestination" and 2) "free will" occurring at the same time.

In order to try to reconcile the 2 into a cogent concept of sovereignty, I have offered that man has free will regarding his choices but God has determined the outcomes of every choice. Many of those consequences He has actually warned us about in advance showing us 1) the consequence and 2) that He is in control.

But it appears that Calvinist don't wanna "play ball." They need nebulous definitions to support other parts of their dogma.

A couple other issues I've tried to help Calvinist understand are belief (our part) vs. faith (God's part) in salvation. "Effectual call" is basically me believing.

Aother would be soul (conscience) vs. spirit (mind, emotions, and will). Conscience allows ALL people to "hear" the gospel by comparing the message with their own 1) conviction of sin and 2) understanding of justice. Again, the resistance is it would turn their model upside down and, I sometimes believe this, they trust more in their model than they do in Christ. :tear:

skypair

 

[johnp.]

bloviating I am not aware of this word, what does it mean?

Why don't you answer any questions skypair?

Hello SaN.

Are some of you saying that God can't choose to allow man to have free will?

You cannot show He is Sovereign by saying He gives it away can you?

Do you believe God is omniscient?
Do you believe God loves all men?
Do you believe He creates people that He knows are going to Hell?
These are the questions the others have failed to explain. How does God love all men when He knows some are Hell bound?

john.

 

[HankD]

I'm not the person questioned but I'll give some answers:

Why don't you answer any questions skypair?

Hello SaN.

You cannot show He is Sovereign by saying He gives it away can you?

Sure you can, because He doesn't give it away.
He allows the outcome of our choices.
On occassion He intervenes which He also knew He would do.

Do you believe God is omniscient? Yes

Do you believe God loves all men? No

Do you believe He creates people that He knows are going to Hell?

Yes, He creates people with the ability to choose and knows and allows the choice. Whatever the choice, He is glorified.

These are the questions the others have failed to explain. How does God love all men when He knows some are Hell bound?

God can love the world, yet hate some of the individuals within that world.
Those who will ultimately reject Him are those whom He hates.
Apparently there is a condition of hardening of the heart in unbelief which ripens into a no-remedy situation. These are the workers of iniquity which he hates.

Proverbs 29:1 He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.​

Psalm 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.​

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.​

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.​

Evidently He is letting the world's time run it's course and the choices to be made so that on that last day every mouth will be shut by the evidence and so that all righteousness can be fulfilled and the Triune God be glorified.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


HankD​

 

[skypair]

Thanks Hank

It comes down to what my mom used to say: "God loves the sinner but hates the sin."

Calvinists, by contrast, say God hates those who have done no good or bad yet, right?

God created all things that are from things that are not. There was no evil "spin" on any of it when God created it -- it was ALL good even in His foreknowledge of it.

But perhaps johnp could name for us one thing that God created in it's first, natal state for evil??? Hell? That would be a good place to hold evil AND was not even created until the angels fell. So go ahead, john.

Of course, God foreknew that in an evil world, sin would arise among His creatures after the fall. He knew He would hate sin. As He foresaw creation, there were many who fell into sin and in that limited sense, He "knew" who would go to hell before they were born. But it's NOT that He didn't also give them a real chance to be saved, which is what john is saying. You know (biblical parallel) just because the farmer that sees no clouds doesn't mean that he ought not plant. Same with God. Plant and hope for a harvest, john! Same for us!

skypair

 

[HankD]

It comes down to what my mom used to say: "God loves the sinner but hates the sin."

Calvinists, by contrast, say God hates those who have done no good or bad yet, right?

God created all things that are from things that are not. There was no evil "spin" on any of it when God created it -- it was ALL good even in His foreknowledge of it.

But perhaps johnp could name for us one thing that God created in it's first, natal state for evil??? Hell? That would be a good place to hold evil AND was not even created until the angels fell. So go ahead, john.

Of course, God foreknew that in an evil world, sin would arise among His creatures after the fall. He knew He would hate sin. As He foresaw creation, there were many who fell into sin and in that limited sense, He "knew" who would go to hell before they were born. But it's NOT that He didn't also give them a real chance to be saved, which is what john is saying. You know (biblical parallel) just because the farmer that sees no clouds doesn't mean that he ought not plant. Same with God. Plant and hope for a harvest, john! Same for us!

skypair

None of us is able to completely comprehend the mind of God and His doings this side of heaven.

On the other hand I personally don't want to belittle anyone for their attempts at making the things of God more understandable to themselves.


HankD

 

[johnp.]

Hello HankD.

Sure you can, because He doesn't give it away.

Neat ain't it?

He allows the outcome of our choices.

That's the trouble isn't it? If He allows then He isn't making the choices and sovereignty lives in the choice. If any are allowed to make a choice then they are sovereign. If God allows a certain amount of free will for any reason and the man chooses, even in accord with God's wishes, then that man was sovereign in that decision and God isn't. The sinner choosing His own destiny is no different from full free will. God is not Sovereign in that choice.

On occassion He intervenes which He also knew He would do.

That is not Sovereignty that is administration. Even what you say to me comes from God. PR 16:1 To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.

PR 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
That is explicitly more than intervention isn't it?

Yes, He creates people with the ability to choose and knows and allows the choice. Whatever the choice, He is glorified.

Cool. That is in conflict with scripture. Allowing men to chose their own destinies does not glorify God it reduces His Sovereignty. As does Those who will ultimately reject Him are those whom He hates. After all He has told us, before the twins were born or had done bad He hated Esau. Do you see how you are always putting the emphasis on man? Free will is a false idol. The man decides and God has to put up with it.

Apparently there is a condition of hardening of the heart in unbelief...

Yes I know and the word of God goes out to harden but it is not a rule. Paul was the worse of sinners and he was saved. It is not the heart or the word that's the problem but God hardens whoever He wants to and has compassion on whoever. It does not depend on man's effort or desires but on God. (Rom 9:16.) It's explicit.

PR 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

I don't know what that can mean but what it says.

On the other hand I personally don't want to belittle anyone for their attempts at making the things of God more understandable to themselves.

Cool man.

john.

 

[HankD]

That's the trouble isn't it? If He allows then He isn't making the choices and sovereignty lives in the choice. If any are allowed to make a choice then they are sovereign. If God allows a certain amount of free will for any reason and the man chooses, even in accord with God's wishes, then that man was sovereign in that decision and God isn't. The sinner choosing His own destiny is no different from full free will. God is not Sovereign in that choice..

No trouble at all because these are all rules you have made for God. These are all thoughts coming out of a limited ability to understand His way of thinking.

He does whatever He pleases and doesn’t ask or need our man made rules.

I’m not saying you are wrong but you may be because you (or I) misunderstand sovereignty.

Personally, I don’t believe God is incapable of giving us true free will even within the His sovereignty.

That is not Sovereignty that is administration. Even what you say to me comes from God.

PR 16:1 To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue

PR 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
That is explicitly more than intervention isn't it?

OK if what I say comes from God then , No, and you are wrong.

Acts 5
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
And kept back [part] of the price, his wife also being privy [to it], and brought a certain part, and laid [it] at the apostles' feet.
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

Taking your theory to it’s logical conclusion, you have God lying to Himself.

HankD

 

[npetreley]

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

I'm surprised nobody has addressed this. This is one of the best objections I've seen so far.

I was tempted to joke around and say this doesn't prove free will, it just proves that Peter was a free-willer. But that's not a serious response.

First, Peter is saying this to Ananias. Remember that from a human perspective, we all make our own decisions, so Peter's response is perfectly normal.

Ananias died immediately, but if Ananias had lived for a few moments more and I were there, I would have recommended the response, "No, from God's perspective, it was not in my own power, so why does God still blame me, for who resists His will?"

 

[johnp.]

Taking your theory to it’s logical conclusion, you have God lying to Himself.

Not really HankD. God caused him to lie to God but God wasn't lying to Himself, He knew.

A similar thing happened with Pharaoh. God said He would harden Pharaoh and then He told Pharoah to do that which he had been hardened to resist.

No trouble at all because these are all rules you have made for God.

I do not make rules for God.

These are all thoughts coming out of a limited ability to understand His way of thinking.

To tell you the truth HankD all I see is grown up men denying the very words in front of their eyes and I am amazed at the unbelief involved.

PR 16:1 To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue

God replied for you.

PR 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

God brought you hear to hear this.

That is the word of God not made up words from me or anyone else. Since you reject them as they stand then what can I say?

john.

 

[johnp.]

Thanks npetreley.

First time I've seen it as well. That wouldn't be Romans 9:19 by any chance would it?

john.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I'm surprised nobody has addressed this. This is one of the best objections I've seen so far.

I was tempted to joke around and say this doesn't prove free will, it just proves that Peter was a free-willer. But that's not a serious response.

First, Peter is saying this to Ananias. Remember that from a human perspective, we all make our own decisions, so Peter's response is perfectly normal.

Ananias died immediately, but if Ananias had lived for a few moments more and I were there, I would have recommended the response, "No, from God's perspective, it was not in my own power, so why does God still blame me, for who resists His will?"

You are brave NPet. lol

 

[HankD]

That is the word of God not made up words from me or anyone else.

So is the Acts passage that Ananias had power to do as he chose.

Since you reject them as they stand then what can I say?

Say whatever you want, Just don't burn me at the stake.


HankD