Mdivs

[StefanM]

Again I disagree. Looking at the rosters of many large, accredited seminaries, you can find those with doctoral degrees from unaccredited universities. For instance, there are several people with degrees from the like of BJU (from before they were accredited) LBU, etc. Also, a doctorate degree, even from an a unaccredited university, helps ones ministerial job options. Yes, that MDiv. is great. But if you have a D. Min or even a ThD, it certainly puts you above the other possible candidates.

Which seminaries? Remember, not all candidates are in seminaries on the basis of the UA degree. They might be qualified by other means.

It helps your ministry job options because churches want to feel important by having a "doctor." I think this is ridiculous, and I wish we would eliminate the DMin altogether, including accredited ones. We'd be better off using a nomenclature like the EdS.

 

[Havensdad]

Which seminaries? Remember, not all candidates are in seminaries on the basis of the UA degree. They might be qualified by other means.

It helps your ministry job options because churches want to feel important by having a "doctor." I think this is ridiculous, and I wish we would eliminate the DMin altogether, including accredited ones. We'd be better off using a nomenclature like the EdS.

Southern Baptist Theological for one.

Also, I disagree with you about the churches wanting to feel "important", at least in SBC churches. They want someone that they know has spent a lot of time studying God's word. Typically (though I know it's not always the case) the one with the doctorate (all other things being equal), knows more.

If this is the case, why is it that Seminary professors get called "doctors"? Let's just eliminate it all together. The people doing work in the Ministry, CERTAINLY deserve the title just as much as the professors. All the same reasonings apply in both places.

 

[StefanM]

PhDs are research degrees. DMins do not have to study modern foreign languages, nor do they have to produce an original piece of research that contributes to the field. They study practical fields, not the biblical text, although they must interact with it.

A PhD in New Testament also equals about 60 hours while the DMIN runs just over 30. Moreover, the hours within the PhD are generally more demanding.

I suggest that you find David Wells' Essay "The D-Minization of the Ministry" in No God but God. The DMins are beneficial, but they are in no way equivalent to the PhD. They aren't even equivalent to the EdD.

I'd bet that enrollment in DMin programs would plummet if the title changed to something other than "Doctor."

It's not a matter of "deserving" a title. The term "Doctor" MEANS teacher. It applies most appropriately to a professor, especially after completing a degree that prepares one for academic research and teaching. Bro. Joe might be a good pastor, but why do we expect him to have a doctoral degree?

If you're looking for someone with more background in the Bible, you're better off getting a student with a ThM in a biblical area than someone with a DMin. They have the same number of hours post-MDiv , and the ThM is in-field and more rigorous. Guess which one will have an easier time finding a church position? The DMin, because "Dr" looks pretty on the church bulletin.

 

[Havensdad]

PhDs are research degrees. DMins do not have to study modern foreign languages, nor do they have to produce an original piece of research that contributes to the field. They study practical fields, not the biblical text, although they must interact with it.

A PhD in New Testament also equals about 60 hours while the DMIN runs just over 30. Moreover, the hours within the PhD are generally more demanding.

I suggest that you find David Wells' Essay "The D-Minization of the Ministry" in No God but God. The DMins are beneficial, but they are in no way equivalent to the PhD. They aren't even equivalent to the EdD.

I'd bet that enrollment in DMin programs would plummet if the title changed to something other than "Doctor."

It's not a matter of "deserving" a title. The term "Doctor" MEANS teacher. It applies most appropriately to a professor, especially after completing a degree that prepares one for academic research and teaching. Bro. Joe might be a good pastor, but why do we expect him to have a doctoral degree?

Why does it have to be "brother Joe". That is quite demeaning. The BEST seminary professors, are those who have spent 20 or thirty years in the Ministry, BEFORE becoming a professor.

Also> what is a preacher? It is someone who expounds and teaches God's word, PLUS inspires his people to actually put it into practice.

If you're looking for someone with more background in the Bible, you're better off getting a student with a ThM in a biblical area than someone with a DMin. They have the same number of hours post-MDiv , and the ThM is in-field and more rigorous. Guess which one will have an easier time finding a church position? The DMin, because "Dr" looks pretty on the church bulletin.

Wrong. They might be better at writing a book, but the D. Min. is the one you want preaching your sermons, and teaching your Sunday Schools. The D. Min. is geared specifically for the environment of one in full time ministry.

 

[StefanM]

Why does it have to be "brother Joe". That is quite demeaning. The BEST seminary professors, are those who have spent 20 or thirty years in the Ministry, BEFORE becoming a professor.
they
Also> what is a preacher? It is someone who expounds and teaches God's word, PLUS inspires his people to actually put it into practice.




Wrong. They might be better at writing a book, but the D. Min. is the one you want preaching your sermons, and teaching your Sunday Schools. The D. Min. is geared specifically for the environment of one in full time ministry.

Bro. Joe is not demeaning. I'd rather have a pastor go by "Bro. Joe" than Dr. Smith, even if he has a PhD.

Seminary professors don't have to spend 20 years "in the ministry" to be good
professors. You can do ministry without being paid full-time by a church.

You said specifically they desired the Doctorate because they've "spent a lot of time studying God's word." The DMin does not magically make you a better minister. The people with a ThM have an MDiv background. BOTH are trained for local church ministry. The individual with the ThM in NT will have a greater background in NT exegesis and interpretation, the foundation for preaching and teaching the NT.

You can't have it both ways. If you want someone with more "practical" courses, the DMin is better. If you want someone who completed more courses in the biblical text, you want the ThM. You can't claim that the DMin is desired because they want someone with more time with the text.

 

[preachinjesus]

Stefan is holding the position I agree with well. (Particularly about the DMin-ization of ministry)

Southern Baptist Theological for one.

I'd like a list of names of faculty that hold degrees from unacreditted school.

 

[Pastor Shaun]

Hey guys
I shouldn't have even opened up this thread. However, thanks for taking the time to reply. I am a 22 year old senior in college, I am a youth minister in a small church, and ordained in a small holiness denomination. I go to Bible college and will finish my degree, Lord willing, in Biblical studies and teacher education (5-9 social studies and english). It is my goal in Christ to become a Hospital Chaplain. I can receive a MACL in Pastoral Care that is RA for dirt cheap, that I can more than likely "dump" into Liberty's MDIV program. It is my goal to pastor in my denomination and be a chaplain until the Lord shows me different. I will eventually like to study with a RA school, but for now I just want to know more about the Bible and have a closer walk with Jesus. I admire those who have studied through seminary accredited or not accredited. If its through a conversation with someone, a book, or an unaccredited class I want to learn. I first thought that academics is where I wanted to be but I am leaning toward the pastorate and being there for hurting people. My original post dealt with what people though about the school. Maybe someone learned something through them. Anyways, just some thoughts from a young one trying to learn more about this beautiful book that we read, the Bible! :godisgood:

 

[TCGreek]

Stefan is holding the position I agree with well. (Particularly about the DMin-ization of ministry)



I'd like a list of names of faculty that hold degrees from unacreditted school.

He's probably referring to another school. I'll say that.

 

[TCGreek]

StefanM,

Did CES and Whitefield theological seminary do anything for James R. White and Robert L. Thomas, respectively?

 

[StefanM]

StefanM,

Did CES and Whitefield theological seminary do anything for James R. White and Robert L. Thomas, respectively?

I can't speak to the latter, but they probably did. However, degrees from these institutions will not open many doors for you. They may prepare you for research and writing, but, unfortunately, preparation isn't the point. If you are prepared but no one will recognize your preparation, then you are stuck.

My point isn't that you can't get a good education through an unaccredited school. I simply don't think you'll get much utility out of the degree. Degree programs have two purposes: to provide an education and to provide a formal "proof" of that education. UA institutions fail at the latter.

 

[TCGreek]

I can't speak to the latter, but they probably did. However, degrees from these institutions will not open many doors for you. They may prepare you for research and writing, but, unfortunately, preparation isn't the point. If you are prepared but no one will recognize your preparation, then you are stuck.

My point isn't that you can't get a good education through an unaccredited school. I simply don't think you'll get much utility out of the degree. Degree programs have two purposes: to provide an education and to provide a formal "proof" of that education. UA institutions fail at the latter.

Your point is accepted to some degree. If for government purposes, which includes government recognized accreditation, then yes.

But if for missionary work, private Christian schools and the pastorate, then no. This is just my take.

 

[Havensdad]

Stefan is holding the position I agree with well. (Particularly about the DMin-ization of ministry)



I'd like a list of names of faculty that hold degrees from unacreditted school.

No problem. Go here>

http://www.sbts.edu/academics/Degree_Programs_/Masters_Degrees.aspx

Click on one of the degree programs> it pulls up the faculty lists. You will notice several of the professors theological degrees, are from, for example, Bob Jones University (These people have been on the staff for years...)(Several Ph.d's from Bob Jones, there....).

MANY of them got there undergraduate degrees from unaccredited(though well respected) institutions.

I also saw something that made me happy! A couple of the professors have their only doctorate through UNISA. They are accredited through the same body (govermental/CHE) that accredits SATS...

 

[TomVols]

Stefan,
I have not read the essay you refer to. However, not all D.Mins are just "survey the SS class" projects. At one time, D.Mins at Southern spent MORE time in the classroom than Ph.D folks. Many D.Min programs I looked at included theological courses. And Ph.D. programs and D.Mins do not involve Biblical languages, but both at SBTS and some others require them for entry. No question, if I could do one or the other, I'd probably do the Ph.D, or at least do a Th.M. before Ph.D. But then again, my B.A. is in theology, so I'm a different animal. That said, I know men who have done both a Ph.D. and a D.Min, and they felt that that to a man, the D.Min was far more useful in their daily ministries (some were professors) than the Ph.D. And these are not the "leave the theology alone and let me work for the Lord" types. I can name two well known Ph.Ds who were highly touted profs at SBTS that not only recommended that their students do D.Mins as opposed to Ph.Ds, but they even recommended a very oft mentioned UA school for its rigor and usefulness.

Many D.Min projects/dissertations do require original research and application to a ministry setting. A friend who did a Ph.D. in homiletics said he basically did a research into sermon delivery styles and their effects on youth. He stole the idea from a D.Min guy D.Mins are not anti-research degrees.

I think a good UA degree could very well prepare one for church and mission work. Not all UAs are bad. Not all RA/NA degrees are good. It's the person and what he learns and practices/teaches.

I hope to do a D.Min someday, and I plan on it being CES or Whitefield. Neither are welterweight programs.

 

[Havensdad]

Stefan,
I have not read the essay you refer to. However, not all D.Mins are just "survey the SS class" projects. At one time, D.Mins at Southern spent MORE time in the classroom than Ph.D folks. Many D.Min programs I looked at included theological courses. And Ph.D. programs and D.Mins do not involve Biblical languages, but both at SBTS and some others require them for entry. No question, if I could do one or the other, I'd probably do the Ph.D, or at least do a Th.M. before Ph.D. But then again, my B.A. is in theology, so I'm a different animal. That said, I know men who have done both a Ph.D. and a D.Min, and they felt that that to a man, the D.Min was far more useful in their daily ministries (some were professors) than the Ph.D. And these are not the "leave the theology alone and let me work for the Lord" types. I can name two well known Ph.Ds who were highly touted profs at SBTS that not only recommended that their students do D.Mins as opposed to Ph.Ds, but they even recommended a very oft mentioned UA school for its rigor and usefulness.

Many D.Min projects/dissertations do require original research and application to a ministry setting. A friend who did a Ph.D. in homiletics said he basically did a research into sermon delivery styles and their effects on youth. He stole the idea from a D.Min guy D.Mins are not anti-research degrees.

I think a good UA degree could very well prepare one for church and mission work. Not all UAs are bad. Not all RA/NA degrees are good. It's the person and what he learns and practices/teaches.

I hope to do a D.Min someday, and I plan on it being CES or Whitefield. Neither are welterweight programs.

I too, have considered a D. Min from Whitefield...

 

[preachinjesus]

No problem. Go here>

Well I asked for a list and got a link...oh well...

Anyhoo, I looked over the list and found only two people with degrees from Bob Jones. One of them has two PhDs from other institutions (one being Hebrew University) which would make up for it, the other seems to be old enough to not have the acredittation issue at play.

You seem to forget that in a department and school with well over 100 faculty members it is not representative to infer this is a common practice. I would ask for you to look at all the other degrees and see where they come from.

I will say this, Bob Jones does have a great academic track record. Their issue with RA is more philosophical than anything. Most every other school I've seen that suggests to offer degrees doesn't meet that standard.

If we are called to ministry we are called to excellence...mail it in degrees and classes don't seem excellent to me.

 

[Havensdad]

Well I asked for a list and got a link...oh well...

Anyhoo, I looked over the list and found only two people with degrees from Bob Jones. One of them has two PhDs from other institutions (one being Hebrew University) which would make up for it, the other seems to be old enough to not have the acredittation issue at play.

You seem to forget that in a department and school with well over 100 faculty members it is not representative to infer this is a common practice. I would ask for you to look at all the other degrees and see where they come from.

I will say this, Bob Jones does have a great academic track record. Their issue with RA is more philosophical than anything. Most every other school I've seen that suggests to offer degrees doesn't meet that standard.

If we are called to ministry we are called to excellence...mail it in degrees and classes don't seem excellent to me.

What do you mean by "mail it in" degrees? Are you referring to distance education? So you you are also attacking schools such as Reformed Theological Seminary, and their online M.A.R.S. program? Or Liberty? Both of which are accredited?

 

[Havensdad]

I too, have considered a D. Min from Whitefield...

actually, after looking into it, that would be stupid. Thanks to the per semester caps at Liberty, a D. Min is actually cheaper there, and they are RA...and theres not a five year requirement like at Whitefield!

I cannot believe they require a min. 5 years on a D. Min, when they have Ph. D programs that are only 3 years. That seems kinda goofy to me. If I am going to spend five years on a degree, it is certainly not going to be a 30 hour degree! Sheesh, they act like your going to be doing surgery on someone! Hey, Mr. Wilkin, I am not holding a scalpel here!

Theoretically, with a M Div. being a prerequisite, which is three years minimum, and then 4 years for an under grad, that would mean 12 YEARS for a degree that would be considered to be a much lesser degree.

Just for fun, I poked around in some accredited schools, and could not find one with a 5 year minimum on a D. Min. I found a couple 4, but most were either NO minimum requirement, with the "norm" being three...

Does five years for a D. Min not seem a little out there? I am not an expert by far, but it seems they might be over compensating...

 

[TomVols]

Isn't the D.Min at Whitefield that's 5 years suited for people with no master's? You complete a Master's and then your Doctorate. That's why the five years.

 

[Havensdad]

Isn't the D.Min at Whitefield that's 5 years suited for people with no master's? You complete a Master's and then your Doctorate. That's why the five years.

Uh, thats not what the catalog description says...

Doctor of Ministry (D.Min.)
The Doctor of Ministry degree is a five-year study program
offered in the field of Pastoral Theology. All courses of
study directly relate to preaching, worship and sacraments.
A student must possess a Master of Divinity degree or it’s
equivalent in order to enroll in this degree program of
study.
Required Courses: Christian Worship / History of
Reading and Preaching in Worship I / History of
Reading and Preaching in Worship II / Puritan
Worship and Practice / A Reformed View of Ministry
and Preaching / Revivalism and the Revivals in
History / Church Government / The Lord’s Supper
in Worship / Contemporary Evangelical Thoughts
on Leadership and Ministry / Dissertation

In order to enroll in this 5 year doctoral program (for a D. Min!!), one must possess a Master of Divinity...

I think that is crazy. Compare that to the three year program at Southern Baptist Theological. Since we are to "strive for excellence", I guess we need to forgo these over priced, paltry little 3 year D.Mins from "accredited" institutions, and go for a REAL, five year degree, from this non-government endorsed institute...

:laugh:

 

[StefanM]

Your point is accepted to some degree. If for government purposes, which includes government recognized accreditation, then yes.

But if for missionary work, private Christian schools and the pastorate, then no. This is just my take.

It depends on the circles in which you reside. Some mission boards expect accredited degrees. Some missions work (like teaching in overseas seminaries) requires accredited degrees. Private Christian schools often require accredited degrees as well, as they are often accredited. I have also seen numerous "ads" requiring prospective pastors to hold accredited MDivs.

For the IFB man, accreditation isn't as important. For the SBC man, it is very important.