ME (Millennial Exclusion) Posts

See Ed’s comments.

Please, don’t try to convince us you never read anything from the amill point of view.

So then, you render the term “last days” as meaningless since everyone since Pentecost has lived in them. I think the term “last days” has a very specific meaning and pertains to a specific time.

Yes, and I pointed out that according to Isaiah death, sin and curses all exist in those new Heavens and New Earth.


Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

This seems to contradict your statement that I originally responded to:

“There is no proof of hint find anywhere in the Bible telling us, that there shall the survival of the wicked beyond the all-comsummating second advent”.

You said the New H&E occur after the Second Advent, Isaiah says death, sin and curses occur in the New H&E therefore the wicked do in fact survive beyond the Second Advent. Revelation 22:15 also confirms this.

Bingo!!!! The New Jerusalem exists now. Welcome to the world of preterism.

Now your back to contradictions. Is verse 19 not in the same context as verse 17 and verse 20 that speaks of death and sin?

How do you know? Unless you read the works of men.(Col. 2:8)

What exactly do Amills believe “shall die” to mean?

“for the child shall die an hundred years old”

Actually I do.

Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

How is this different than the immortality and “never dying” the lost man receives?

This is not speak of apply to a faithful servant, but, it apply to "sinner" as unjust. It means that, a sinner 'being' "an hundred years old" shall be what? - ACCURSED. Accursed means, doomed or punishment.

Does the child die?

.

I don’t.

 

So you say those in verse 15 are in eternal Hell. Yet then turn around and say they are invited into God’s home:

“God's home, where He dwells. They are invited to enter into”,

Rev 22:14 `Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;

In order to enter the city they must first be outside the city. The city is the New Jerusalem. Yet you say the New Jerusalem doesn’t come till after the Second Advent. So will sinners be able to enter the New Jerusalem after the Second Advent? Have you thought this through?

Bingo again!!! Are you sure you’re not a heretical preterist? And where is this river found?

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

When did John say these events would occur?

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Now are those the words of man?

Once again you contradict yourself. You just said Jesus is the water of life and is available today. Why do the nations need to be healed in eternity, and what nations exist in eternity?

“and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations”

You say that the New H&E occur after the second coming yet also say those outside the New Jerusalem, that is located in the New Heavens and Earth, may come to salvation:

“They are invited to enter into, these who DO His commandments, shall have eternal life with Christ.”

“Ok, Rev. 22:17 could apply to any individual of today. It speaks of God's invitation of salvation to everyone”.


CH Spurgeon:
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

 

Then why do Isaiah, Peter, and John all refer to it as a future (to them) creation? See you tommorrow.:sleeping_2:

 

1Th 4:17 (KJV1611 Edition):
Then we which are aliue, and remaine, shalbe
caught vp together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the aire:
and so shall wee euer bee with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (The Latin Vulgate, 0448 Edition):
deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur
simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus
obviam Domino in aera
et sic semper cum Domino erimus

'rapture' is a Englishized form of the Latin word 'rapiemur'
It is translated 'caught up' in the KJVs

Rapture is a Biblical word - Latin Vulgate Bible, of course

 

Wow, must be a long 3rd shift.

 

Ye Belong to Christ

In Mark 9 There is a serious warning to someone. And it's not a parable.

• Does "Ye Belong to Christ" mean that the persons he is speaking to are saved?
• If not what does it mean?
• Is John Included in the "Ye" (second person plural)?
• What is the significance of interjecting reward into these scriptures?

Who is the "Thy/Thee, 1st person singular" if not the "one who belongs to Christ?"
Is it John (or does the text allow for someone else?)
If John, Is he saved? (He belongs to Christ)
If so, do the warnings in vs 42-48 apply to John?
If the message is to unbelievers, false-professors, Jews in the trib, etc., then according to the text, how do they escape Hell?


In Christ, Lacy

 

You do realize what is about to happen don't you Lacy my brother?

 

Let's look at the Strong's Concordance:
http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

Mark 9:41
For 1063 whosoever 3739 302 shall give 4222 0 you 5209 a cup 4221 of water 5204 to drink 4222 in 1722 my 3450 name 3686, because 3754 ye belong 2075 to Christ 5547, verily 281 I say 3004 unto you 5213, he shall 622 0 not 3364 lose 622 his 846 reward 3408.


(1) 'ye belong' comes from the Greek Este, the second person plural of 'to be'. It means 'ye (you) are' — "...because ye art Christ...'. The meaning would seem to be that they are members of the Spritual body of Christ (1 Cor 6:15, 12:12-27), ie, the "Spiritual Temple" of Christendom (John 2:21).

(2) 'reward' comes from the Greek Misthos, meaning 'dues paid for work' — "...he shall not lose his wages". The implication seems to be that giving nourishment to the followers of Christ counts as "working for God". By doing "God's work", you earn 'wages' from Heaven.

Note: doing "God's work" does not mean paying the Church to kiss (fake) relics of Saints. That is taking money from followers of Christ. Rather, "God's work" means giving aid and support to the followers of the Messiah.

 

Hi, Lacy.

At first blush, I believe Jesus was directly relating this to Mt 25:31-46, the sheep and goats judgment. "Belong to Me" means justified by faith in God (in the tribulaiton, there will be believers from the left behind "church" and believers from "Israel" whose common faith is OT-style faith in God and the coming kingdom).

Notice just preceding this is His identification of "the least of these" in Mt 25 and here -- children. And the reward?? In the MK. Notice likewise the reference of 9:42 and following to entering into the MK.

skypair

 

Just for clarification's sake. . .Do you believe that those who are either saved during the trib or the saved who miss the firstfruits rapture (left behind church) are saved thence by the keeping of the Levitical temple rites and the Mosiac law?

I see the parallels. And I do believe that missing the rapture is a definite possibility. I also don't contend that all who miss the rapture consequently also are excluded from the ME. But some do.

Again, the warning here in Mark 9 is not the missing of the rapture (That's in Luke 21:36.) The warning here is Hell Fire.

 

I think he was telling them that if you see someone casting out devil in his name that you should no forbid them of doing so. To me just because someone is not fallowing you and is serving God that you should not forbid them of doing so because they are not fallowing the way you fallow Christ. I think if you read on down it said this Mr 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

 

I certainly agree with you brother that this is the main thrust of v39!

In Christ, lacy

 

Well, I'll assume from the silence of the Millennial Exclusion opponents and their "inability" or "unwillingness" to answer a question or two that all are convinced that my position is true.:laugh: :laugh:

(Adopting a little of my opponents' debate techniques.)

'Till my change come, -lacy

 

No. It is my understanding that the left behind church will believe just as we did but the "oil" and the "wedding door" are not open anymore. As for Israel, I believe they will "look upon Him Whom they have pierced and mourn [and convert]" about midtrib per Zech 12:10 and Joel 2. 144,000 will even be "sealed" but against death, not to the wedding. IOW, they will know the Christ we do, but again, they can only be "guests" at the wedding supper (Mt 22, Rev 19:7-9 and following) postrib on the earth.

Good! So you can see my POV and I yours. It's about time to "unwrap the elephant," isn't it!

So have you cut off your right hand? or plucked out your eye? cut off your foot?

Get serious, Lacy. These are for the tribulation going into the MK. What did Jesus say would happen if they didn't feed and protect the least? HELL. That is, better to cut off your foot, hand, or eye than to offend in the trib!! You can't make these out to be a) believers and especially not b) church! You are holding on with all your might to threats that don't apply to you!

skypair

 

While I in no way take these suggestions lightly or indiscriminately write them off as figrative, I do believe that they are indeed figurative for one simple reason.

You have another hand, eye and foot.

I have indeed had to "cut off a hand" and "pluck out an eye" on occasion inorder to not make provision for the flesh. Christ is saying that if we indeed fear God, if we realize that we will be judged for what we built on the foundation, that we will take drastic measures to win the prize and gain the inheritance.

lacy

 

Okay, I'll take a crack at it. This is a "difficult" passage, for sure.

Yes, it means the saved, and yes, it includes John.

Hard to know what He means by reward. Is that a blessing in this life, even to an unbeliever, or does that mean only believers would be offering the cup of water to other believers, and so would be rewarded in Heaven???

Definitely John in 41, also the other disciples who were present, and yes I suppose John was saved.

The warnings in 42-48 could apply to John, and any other disciples present, but are more likely to be understood as a generic "you", meaning anyone and not just limited to John and the others.

The words about chopping off hands and poking out eyes and the part about salt echo Matthew 5. So, it makes me wonder if John didn't do a little "cut and paste" here and just plug these remarks of Jesus into the middle of another conversation.

If the passage refers to unbelievers, they would escape hell by being saved, same as anyone else. For believers the message appears to be don't go on sinning, and yes, this does appear to raise issues for OSAS.

Like I said, it's a difficult passage.

But, I still don't see any mention of 1,000 years in hell during the earthly millenial kingdom there.

Les