Meaningless repetition (from Matt 6:7)

[Speedpass]

A few years ago David Jeremiah did a series on prayer, and he made mention of this verse. He said that prayers that go along the line of "Heavenly Father...Lord...Lord...Lord...Lord" would be a perfect example of this. He says that when we talk to another person, we normally don't repeat their name--so why should we consistently repeat our Creator's name when we pray?

 

[rbell]

Depends on the intent.

Some folks do that much like "uh," or "you know" invades our conversation.

Meaningless, as in vain...that's something else. That's praying to impress. I know of many who might use the title "Lord" repeatedly who are authentic prayer warriors.

 

[Victorious]

A few years ago David Jeremiah did a series on prayer, and he made mention of this verse. He said that prayers that go along the line of "Heavenly Father...Lord...Lord...Lord...Lord" would be a perfect example of this. He says that when we talk to another person, we normally don't repeat their name--so why should we consistently repeat our Creator's name when we pray?

Some people do and some don't. My question would be, does it matter and why? Would it matter to God?

I don't think He cares how many times we reverence Him, just if we mean it.

 

[Havensdad]

The words are "meaningless repetition." English language speakers get caught up on the word "meaningless," because we use this word in a euphemistic way. That is not the intent of the words here. The Phrase means what is being spoken is:

#1 Meaningless. In other words, they are not really saying anything. It is just a noise: in fact, the Greek "word" here is not even a word. It what you call onomatapoiea. It is a sound, like saying "The fan went SWISHHH." Specifically, it is "Bata."

#2 Repetitious. Over and over again.

I believe that this is referring to the practices of the time, which used glossolalia, or "Language of the Gods" to speak to deity. They would chant meaningless sounds over and over again (kind of like the modern "tongue" movement). Saying "God" or "Lord" is not meaningless, and hence, is not what Jesus was talking about.

 

[canadyjd]

"Meaningless repetition" most likely refers to the pagan practice of repeatedly "chanting" phrases in an effort to "evoke the diety" or "spirit" into doing what they want them to do.... either bringing blessing on themselves or curses on their enemies.

So, the intention of the heart is at work here. If a person repeatedly says "Lord, Jesus" during the prayer because they believe they are being respectful, then I don't see a problem. Let Holy Spirit and their own conscience guide them.

If, however, someone believes God is "obligated" to respond in a certain way because they say certain words or pray certain prayers (i.e. the "word of faith" folks), then I believe this falls into the "meaningless repetition" category.

peace to youraying:

 

[Marcia]

A few years ago David Jeremiah did a series on prayer, and he made mention of this verse. He said that prayers that go along the line of "Heavenly Father...Lord...Lord...Lord...Lord" would be a perfect example of this. He says that when we talk to another person, we normally don't repeat their name--so why should we consistently repeat our Creator's name when we pray?

I heard this sermon recently (it was clearly a repeat of the one you heard) and I disagree with him on this. This is not the context at all of what Jesus was talking about. He's talking about how the heathen pray; I think Havensdad is right and/or it is that they prayed long prayers trying to impress their gods with a lot of words or sounds. I was surprised that Jeremiah said this.

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

 

[Havensdad]

If, however, someone believes God is "obligated" to respond in a certain way because they say certain words or pray certain prayers (i.e. the "word of faith" folks), then I believe this falls into the "meaningless repetition" category.

peace to youraying:

While I certainly believe such ideology is blasphemous (i.e. believing God is obligated to give us what we want), it does not fit the word "meaningless." The point is that people are making meaningless noises, not actual words, like going "boogiedy boo," or "Lamamamamama," or other sounds that are not actually words, and are therefore meaningless.

 

[TomVols]

I think meaningless phrases and words can be in view.

When someone repeats a word;
when someone parrots a word or phrase ("travelling mercies" and the like)

 

[canadyjd]

While I certainly believe such ideology is blasphemous (i.e. believing God is obligated to give us what we want), it does not fit the word "meaningless." The point is that people are making meaningless noises, not actual words, like going "boogiedy boo," or "Lamamamamama," or other sounds that are not actually words, and are therefore meaningless.

I understood what you said. I don't think you are following through with what Jesus is teaching here.

The point I was trying to make, that I believe Jesus is trying to make, is that the pagans are attempting to force or "evoke" a response from their diety by what they say.

In contrast, Jesus gives us a model prayer that tells us to approach God with humility (instead of attempting to force or evoke a response), seek His will on earth (instead of our own), trust Him to give daily necessities (not great wealth), asking for forgiveness for our own sins as we have forgiven those who sin against us (instead of asking the diety to curse our enemies).

peace to youraying:

 

[Allan]

The words are "meaningless repetition." English language speakers get caught up on the word "meaningless," because we use this word in a euphemistic way. That is not the intent of the words here. The Phrase means what is being spoken is:

#1 Meaningless. In other words, they are not really saying anything. It is just a noise: in fact, the Greek "word" here is not even a word. It what you call onomatapoiea. It is a sound, like saying "The fan went SWISHHH." Specifically, it is "Bata."

#2 Repetitious. Over and over again.

I believe that this is referring to the practices of the time, which used glossolalia, or "Language of the Gods" to speak to deity. They would chant meaningless sounds over and over again (kind of like the modern "tongue" movement). Saying "God" or "Lord" is not meaningless, and hence, is not what Jesus was talking about.

This is an excert from renowned Greek scholar A.T. Robertson on Mat 6:7:

6:7 {Use not vain repetitions} (me battalogesete). Used of stammerers who repeat the words, qen mere babbling or chattering, empty repetition. The etymology is uncertain, but it is probably onomatopoetic like "babble." The worshippers of Baal on Mount Carmel (#1Ki 8:26) and of Diana in the amphitheatre at Ephesus who yelled for two hours (#Ac 19:34) are examples. The Mohammedans may also be cited who seem to think that they "will be heard for their much speaking" (en tˆi polulogiai). Vincent adds "and the Romanists with their _paternosters_ and _avast_." The Syriac Sinaitic has it: "Do not be saying idle things." Certainly Jesus does not mean to condemn all repetition in prayer since he himself prayed three times in Gethsemane "saying the same words again" (#Mt 26:44). "As the Gentiles do," says Jesus. "The Pagans thought that by endless repetitions and many words they would inform their gods as to their needs and weary them ('_fatigare deos_') into granting their requests" (Bruce).

and Vincent Word Studies of the NT:

7. Use vain repetitions (battaloghshte). A word formed in imitation of the sound, battalogein: properly, to stammer; then to babble or prate, to repeat the same formula many times, as the worshippers of Baal and of Diana of Ephesus (1 Kings xviii. 26; Acts xix. 34) and the Romanists with their paternosters and aves.

emphasis on both mine

Therefore while you are partially correct in that it 'can' and in some cases does extend to such areas, the context of this passage is specifically speaking of the pagan practices of chanting or saying phrases over and over in order to get their requests granted.

Also John Gill who was quite good with his Greek states this:

Matthew 6:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions
Saying the same things over and over again,

as the Heathens do,
as the worshippers of Baal, from morning till noon, ( 1 Kings 18:26 ) . This our Lord observes, to dissuade from such practices, because the Gentiles, who were odious to the Jews, used them, and the Jews were guilty of the same; had they not, there would not have been any need of such advice:

for they think they shall be heard for their much speaking;
as did the Jews, who, under pretence of "long prayers", devoured widows' houses; and with whom it is an axiom, that "everyone (hnen hlyptb) (hbrmh) , that multiplies prayer is heard" F8; and whoever prolongs his prayer, his prayer does not return empty; and he that is long in prayer, his days are prolonged F9: and, according to their canons, every day a man ought to pray eighteen prayers. Moreover, their prayer books abound in tautologies, and in expressing the same things in different words, and by a multiplicity of them.

 

[Allan]

While I certainly believe such ideology is blasphemous (i.e. believing God is obligated to give us what we want), it does not fit the word "meaningless." The point is that people are making meaningless noises, not actual words, like going "boogiedy boo," or "Lamamamamama," or other sounds that are not actually words, and are therefore meaningless.

Actually - it does as I just illistrated previously.

 

[Marcia]

...the context of this passage is specifically speaking of the pagan practices of chanting or saying phrases over and over in order to get their requests granted.

The belief in the power of words to evoke a deity, power, or force, and the belief in repetition of words to do this, are still found today: in incantations for spells, in chanting in pagan and New Age practices, and in affirmations.

 

[Allan]

The belief in the power of words to evoke a deity, power, or force, and the belief in repetition of words to do this, are still found today: in incantations for spells, in chanting in pagan and New Age practices, and in affirmations.

Yep, very true.

 

[Havensdad]

The belief in the power of words to evoke a deity, power, or force, and the belief in repetition of words to do this, are still found today: in incantations for spells, in chanting in pagan and New Age practices, and in affirmations.

And, in my opinion, in the Charismatic movement as well (so-called "tongues").

 

[Johnv]

A few years ago David Jeremiah did a series on prayer, and he made mention of this verse. He said that prayers that go along the line of "Heavenly Father...Lord...Lord...Lord...Lord" would be a perfect example of this.

He's wrong. Scripture doesn't condemn repetition, it condemns "meaningless" repitition. People often forget that, and erroneously end up condemning all repetition. The hymn "All Creatures of our God and King" is a good example of repetition that isn't meaningless.

 

[rbell]

I'm not comfortable with the idea of my critiquing people's prayers...saying, "You said 'Lord' too much...God won't hear you."

That's an stretch past what Scripture is talking about, IMO.

 

[Marcia]

And, in my opinion, in the Charismatic movement as well (so-called "tongues").

And not just that, but also with the Word Faith charismatics, their belief in the power of creating with words, which comes from New Thought, a non-Christian system that is in actuality based on occult views.

 

[rbell]

And not just that, but also with the Word Faith charismatics, their belief in the power of creating with words, which comes from New Thought, a non-Christian system that is in actuality based on occult views.

But someone using the word "Lord" in a verbalized prayer...that's not necessarily what they're doing...

 

[Tom Butler]

I read an article quoting Gary Thomas, who wrote in his book Secret Pathways:

It is particularly difficult to describe this type of prayer in writing, as it is best taught in person. In general, however, centering prayer works like this: Choose a word (Jesus or Father, for example) as a focus for contemplative prayer. Repeat the word silently in your mind for a set amount of time (say, twenty minutes) until your heart seems to be repeating the word by itself just as naturally and involuntarily as breathing (p.185)

This may not fit the definition of meaningless repetition, but it comes pretty close, seems to me.