Mel Gibson DUI?

If he holds to modern day Judaism which rejects Christ, then yes...his theology DOES keep him from being a Christian. I don't think I quite understand your point here. Are you saying that Judaism's rejection of Christ does not keep those who adhere to those beliefs from being a Christian?

Joseph Botwinick

 

it is the theology he has professed to believed. I didn't make that up.

The Bible teaches that we can judge people by their fruits. Gibson has produced plenty public fruit. The truth is that no one believes in Jesus as Lord and Savior until they leave all others behind and come to Christ alone. To argue that we should believe someone is saved until they say they aren't is backwards. We go at it the other way.

I am fine leaving his salvation to God. I have merely pointed to the fruit that he has openly left, and pointed out that it doesn't match up with what God told us to expect.

 

None of our fruit does.

Isaiah 64:6 (ESV)
We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

 

This is true...otherwise, our salvation would hinge on our good works. The Fruit of the Holy Spirit, which is the work of God within our lives should be evident though.

Joseph Botwinick

 

What??? Isaiah 64:6 is in the context of a disobedient nation of Israel. Of course their fruit doesn't match up. We shouldn't expect it to. (We should expect Scripture to be used in context, however.)

Matthew 7:13-23 13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. 15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits. 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

1 John 2:3-4 3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Galatians 5:19-25 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Colossians 1:22-23 2 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

Hebrews 3:12-14 12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

And I could post many more verses. The Bible clearly teaches that people who are believers will have a change in their lives.

 

No, if our fruit caused our salvation, then salvation would hinge on our good works. The reason we have fruit is because we are saved, not in order to be saved.

An apple isn't an apple tree because it grows apples. It grows apples because it is an apple tree.

 

With all of that. no one is even mentioning his cursing tirade, including lashing out at Jews. This blows his credibility that his protrayal of them in the movie was "just being true to the text" (though the bloodthirsty Roman soldiers still looked worse to me).

Gibson's Anti-Semitic Tirade -- Alleged Cover Up - TMZ.com

 

I agree. That is what I meant...especially in the context of the passage that Ken quoted.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Um...he was drunk. I have never been drunk, but have seen many people when they are drunk. They do and say things they never would otherwise in their mind altered state.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Good idea.

 

3-page warning: This thread will be closed no sooner than 3:00 p.m. ET by one of the moderators.

Lady Eagle,
Moderator

 

He made a mistake, as we all do.
He admitted battling this choice for years. He did not blame it on the media, stress, his wife, or his job, he accepted that it was his fault and his fault alone. He has not said so far as I have seen that it is a disease (its not) or that he can not help himself (he can).
Did he do wrong? yes
Did he make a fool of himself? you betcha
Is it our place to condemn him and let it wipe out the good stuff he has done? Well I for one am not with out sin do I have no stone to cast. I may not drink, but I know my sins are just as bad as that one.
Hopefully now he will get help if he needs it to let the demon go, before he kills some one.

 

In this, Gibson was correct. That is a side issue however to this one.

When we look at what a man believes and what a man practices, we can tell much about his spiritual state. In this case, looking at what Gibson believes, and looking at how he lives (and drinking does not even enter into my thoughts here), we are on pretty safe ground to say that he is not about being a witness for Christ. He shows himself not to be a true believer.

With respect to "the good stuff he has done," I am not familiar with any of this. I don't doubt that God used his film to bring some to him, but that doesn't excuse Gibson nor does it make him a believer.

We need not condemn him, but neither should we sugar coat the real picture.

 

In vino veritas.

 

Yep...the Romans were wrong about that one.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Yep. People say what they really think, when they are drunk.

Gibson's dad thinks that the Holocaust was largely a fake. Imagine growing up in a home where this kind of thing is expressed:

During his lengthy radio interview, Hutton Gibson, 85, said Jews were out to create "one world religion and one world government" and outlined a conspiracy theory involving Jewish bankers, the US Federal Reserve and the Vatican, among others.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/19/1077072756433.html

So when a Sheriff's deputy says a badly intoxicated Gibson assailed the Jews, and asked if he was a Jew, is it any surprise?

 

Prove it.

Joseph Botwinick