Mel Gibson, The Passion of Jesus Christ, and Baptists

[AdoptedDaughter]

Adopted Daughter, did you forget to list what Catholics believe for full and complete salvation?

No....I listed it all...

 

[cotton]

Thanks AD; someone else emailed me saying this was the fluid sac around the heart; I suppose I got that his heart was pierced from Luke chap 2, where Shimon says to Miriam ...a sword will pierce your own heart also. But that doesn't necessarily mean His heart was pierced.
Thanks,
Cotton

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by AdoptedDaughter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Adopted Daughter, did you forget to list what Catholics believe for full and complete salvation?

No....I listed it all... </font>[/QUOTE]Then you are mistaken about what Catholics believe, according to the Catholics on here.
You have to see the humor in this...you as a stated baptist, here trying to tell people the truth about Catholic beliefs and adament that everyone listen, and now disagreeing with Catholics in the process.
A new belief system is being created...Batholocism. LOL
Gina
Gina

 

[AdoptedDaughter]

Not really, Gina.

Although, if you would like to believe that, that is your right to do so.

However, I am not adament that everyone listen, just that no one says anything false about our Catholic brother and sisters.

 

[AdoptedDaughter]

You're welcome, cotton.

 

[donnA]

Teresa, I was told by a catholic here(may have been one baned since I don't see them around, but could be gone for lent too), that they believed in salvation by faith in Jesus on one thread a week later on another thread that one could not go to heaven without following the sacraments. According to them it takes both, neither alone is enough for them to go to heaven. Thats what I was told here by catholics.

 

[donnA]

Sorry double post, seem to be having computer problems again.

 

[AdoptedDaughter]

Originally posted by donnA:
Teresa, I was told by a catholic here(may have been one baned since I don't see them around, but could be gone for lent too), that they believed in salvation by faith in Jesus on one thread a week later on another thread that one could not go to heaven without following the sacraments. According to them it takes both, neither alone is enough for them to go to heaven. Thats what I was told here by catholics.

Those whom I have talked to are Priests, Seminary Students, and many others very grounded in their faith. These may not have been taught properly.

 

[donnA]

Then maybe next time you should ask them what happens if they do not fulfill the sacramnents. Because every catholic will say they believe in salvation through faith alone in Jesus,and turn around and tell you have to fulfill the sacraments. They all say they beleive in Jesus, but they have the sacraments too. I've had many catholics tell me this, it even came from a priest during my grandmothers funeral.

 

[Gina B]

Donna, I'm starting to think this is more a case of internet Catholicism.
It happens a lot in religious discussion groups online. By the time all is said and done you'd hardly recognize the religion in real life as opposed to how it was presented online.
Plus there's the difference in wording. It's kinda like mormonism... "everyone who believes in Jesus is saved".
Then later... "but I'm saved to a higher degree than you are because I am a member of the "_____" church and have done ________. "
Then usually much later and in most other belief systems... "you've been told the truth and you denied it, so now you're not saved at all".
Gina

 

[AdoptedDaughter]

Catholics use different terminology.

I have just asked a Catholic what you said. The sacraments, they believe, bring us closer to God, like we believe that Bible Study, Prayer, and Communion bring us closer to God.

 

[frozencell]

Originally posted by Gina L:
Why are you posting under the name frozencell?

Gina

It originally started as a kind of tribute to a song I really like by a musician, but now I just haven't changed it to make my life simpler since this is also my name on other boards.

 

[frozencell]

AD, I would just like to thank you for your complete Christian attitude and fine example. You are the very essence of "judge not". I appreciate you acknowledging Catholics as more than just a collective heretical mind like the Borg from Star Trek.

On a side note to everyone. The word cult is generally reserved for religions that have sprung up in the very recent past. Mormonism for example. Catholicism is not a cult as it pre-dated almost every other religion in the world.

 

[paidagogos]

Today, I passed by a Baptist church with an offer of free tickets to see "The Passion" advertised on its message board. Now, why would a Baptist church (independent, fundamental Baptist at that) give free tickets to see a heretical Roman Catholic film?

 

[frozencell]

True faith is not blind as you imply it to be. Faith has an object. The object of the Christian faith is Jesus Christ, an historical figure, whose works and words can be verified not only in the Bible but in many books outside of the Bible. The resurrection itself is one of the most historically attested facts in history. My faith is not blind. It is based on intellectual facts. It is not based on myth, legend, or just simple emotion and sentimentality. It is grounded in the truth. The truth is in the Word of God.

I am very aware that true faith is not blind. It is true, as you state, that the object of CHRISTIAN faith is Jesus Christ the Saviour. Therefore, the object of both Protestant and Catholic faith is the same. We are both Christians.

I'm not sure that I understand what you're trying to get at when you say that other books attest to the crucifixion and then turn around and say that many men have written about the life of Christ using only the Bible. I'm sure both are true and that both can be done, but either way still requires a measure of faith based solely on the subject matter.

Am I asking for evidence that is impossible to give? No. I am asking for an accurate portrayal of the life of Christ. I have volumes of the life of Christ sitting on my shelf in my library, men that have written about the life of Christ, using only the Bible. They don't need to bring in ridiculous mythological stories outside of the Bible. They stick with the Word of God.

Also, teaching someone about the Lord by your perspective would seem difficult. Not everyone shares our faith that the Bible is true and flawless. Many would call the Bible itself a ridiculous mythological story to make us feel better about ourselves (I've heard it!). Still I fail to see what you are trying to get at.

The snapshot is vividly given in the Word of God. All you have to do is read it and let the Holy Spirit illumine your heart.

I agree with you.

BTW, you are just plain wrong about the Bible originally containing the Apocrypha. I have already been through that with the Catholics on another thread. There is no possible way that those books were ever contained in the early Bibles, seeing that they were rejected by Jews and early Christians alike. Even Josephus attests to the fact that they were not in the O.T. canon.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/DEUTEROS.HTM

This should clear that up for you.

Josephus.....Let's consider the source for a moment.

1. He associated himself with the majority party of Pharisees. The man already seems fishy.

2. Was sent to persuade Galileans to join a revolt against Rome. This doesn't sound like a very godly trait to me. Whatever happened to giving God what is God's and giving Ceaser what is Ceaser's?

3. Characteristically blamed others for his failures. Hmmmmmm.....

No, the above are examples of the power and providence of God. The Apocryphal books are not written like the rest of the Word of God with same reverence for God. They are written like stories made up by man, fairy tales; unlike the inspired history of God's chosen people.

I disagree.

I have read the "Biblical fairy tales" of the Apocrypha, and I have read the even bigger apocryphal fairy tales that Carson posted such as the Protoevengelium of James, which Carson considers to be Scripture. I know what I believe. I know what the Scripture is. It is the 66 books of the Bible which God has preserved for us today. The Catholics prefer to believe otherwise and choose to add to the Word of God. That is their prerogative, but it is wrong.
DHK

All the books were preserved. Luther felt the need to remove them because they didn't fit his religious views.

 

[frozencell]

Originally posted by paidagogos:
Today, I passed by a Baptist church with an offer of free tickets to see "The Passion" advertised on its message board. Now, why would a Baptist church (independent, fundamental Baptist at that) give free tickets to see a heretical Roman Catholic film?

Because they are being Christian and unjudgmental. And, most importantly, because it really happened.

 

[donnA]

Originally posted by AdoptedDaughter:
Catholics use different terminology.

I have just asked a Catholic what you said. The sacraments, they believe, bring us closer to God, like we believe that Bible Study, Prayer, and Communion bring us closer to God.

Sacraments are necessary unto man's salvation for three reasons

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/406101.htm

 

[donnA]

In the first way, three sacraments are necessary for salvation. Two of them are necessary to the individual; Baptism, simply and absolutely; Penance, in the case of mortal sin committed after Baptism; while the sacrament of order is necessary to the Church, since "where there is no governor the people shall fall" (Prov. 11:14

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/406504.htm

 

[donnA]

The Catholic Encyclopedia also explains the importance of baptism in the scheme ofsalvation:The effects of this sacrament are: (1) it cleanses us from original sin; (2) it makes usChristians through grace by sharing in Christ’s death and resurrection and setting up aninitial program of living... (3) it makes us children of God as the life of Christ is brought forthwithin us.... Vatican II declared: “...baptism constitutes a sacramental bond of unity linking allwho have been reborn by means of it. But baptism, of itself, is only a beginning.[But]... baptism is necessary for salvation.…4Baptism, however, is only the beginning of justification because in Catholic teachingsubsequent good works increase grace (spiritual power) and help perfect justification.Baptism does not save automatically, for Catholicism holds that salvation can be lostthrough mortal (“deadly”) sin or other means. But salvation cannot be had without it. Be-cause baptism produces regeneration, a person is made capable of faith. Once he exer-cises faith, he grows in sanctification which is then followed by his further justification, sincebaptism makes it possible for a person to cooperate with divine grace, allowing for furthergrowth in righteousness.In Outlines of the Catholic Faith we read the following about baptism:The Sacrament of Baptism cleanses us from original sin. In those who have the use ofreason Baptism also removes actual sin and the temporal punishment due to sin. In Baptism

HERE for the resourse

 

[donnA]

A Person who has the Catholic Faith can attain the state of Justification if that person receives the Sacraments or has the resolve to receive them.


The Reception of the Sacraments is required for Salvation

; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no man was ever justified,..."


If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification, though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema".


. If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema."

" Can.2 If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ: " Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost," let him be anathema.


In conclusion, Justification can be attained by a person with the Catholic Faith together with at least a desire for the Sacraments. He cannot attain Salvation unless he receives the Sacraments

http://www.traditionalromancatholicism.com/Trentanddesire.html