Mel Gibson, The Passion of Jesus Christ, and Baptists

[Living4Him]

What about in Rev. 5:8 (KJV)" And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of the saints."

Also Hebrews 12:1 "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnessess.." (I was taught these are those who have gone on to Heaven before us.)

II Cor. 5:6-8 "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the LordFor we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Phil. 1:23 "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:"

 

[trying2understand]

Living4Him, I'm not understanding how these verses apply. How do these verses forbid asking Saints in Heaven to pray for us?

 

[Living4Him]

T2U, I apologize I wasn't very clear in my postings. I am a promoter of A.M.M.

These verses were meant for DHK who stated that Mary doesn't live.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Living4Him:
T2U, I apologize I wasn't very clear in my postings. I am a promoter of A.M.M.

These verses were meant for DHK who stated that Mary doesn't live.

Thanks for the clarification.

I hope that someone gives my question a shot.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
What specific Scriptures forbid asking a Saint in Heaven to pray for me?

Chapter and verse please.

What specific verses forbid cows marrying pigs in Heaven? Chapter and verse please.

You see how ridiculous your question is. It is illogical. The onus is on you to prove from the Bible that saints in Heaven do pray for those on the earth!
DHK

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
What specific verses forbid cows marrying pigs in Heaven? Chapter and verse please.

You see how ridiculous your question is. It is illogical. The onus is on you to prove from the Bible that saints in Heaven do pray for those on the earth!
DHK

DHK, if the Bible does not forbid asking the Saints in Heaven to pray for me, are you not adding to the Scriptures by telling me that I can not do it?

I'll add this to my list of examples of baptists not really meaning what they preach.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Living4Him:
What about in Rev. 5:8 (KJV)" And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of the saints."

This says nothing about the saints in Heaven praying for those on earth.

prayers of saints--as the angel offers their prayers (Re 8:3) with incense (compare Ps 141:2). This gives not the least sanction to Rome's dogma of our praying to saints. Though they be employed by God in some way unknown to us to present our prayers (nothing is said of their interceding for us), yet we are told to pray only to Him (Re 19:10; 22:8-9). Their own employment is praise (whence they all have harps): ours is prayer.

(Jamieson, Faucett, and Brown).

Also Hebrews 12:1 "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnessess.." (I was taught these are those who have gone on to Heaven before us.)

It is a reference to the Old Testament saints in Hebrews 11. They are simply examples of faith. They in no way are interceding for us. All throughout history we have examples of men and women of faith that surround us with their testimonies of faith.

II Cor. 5:6-8 "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the LordFor we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Nothing is said here about prayer at all. Paul merely states his desire to be in Heaven.

Phil. 1:23 "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:"

Again it is Paul's desire to be with Christ in Heaven, as stated by Paul. There is no request that is made.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
DHK, if the Bible does not forbid asking the Saints in Heaven to pray for me, are you not adding to the Scriptures by telling me that I can not do it?

I'll add this to my list of examples of baptists not really meaning what they preach.

I'll add this to my list of Catholics reading into the Bible of things that are really not there. Get real! Terriers will be in Heaven because the Bible is silent on it. Your logic is ridiculous.
DHK

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
I'll add this to my list of Catholics reading into the Bible of things that are really not there. Get real! Terriers will be in Heaven because the Bible is silent on it. Your logic is ridiculous.
DHK

So if the Bible is silent on it, why aren't you?

You're upset because Catholics do something that isn't forbidden in the Bible!!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
I'll add this to my list of Catholics reading into the Bible of things that are really not there. Get real! Terriers will be in Heaven because the Bible is silent on it. Your logic is ridiculous.
DHK

So if the Bible is silent on it, why aren't you? </font>[/QUOTE]I am. There is no evidence in the Bible that saints in Heaven pray for those on earth, therefore they don't.
There is no evidence that pigs marry cows in Heaven, therefore they don't.
There is no evidence that there are Terriers in Heaven, therefore there are not.

And until one can give evidence to the contrary one must believe that the above does not take place. Give Biblical evidence that they do, then you will have a case. Otherwise remain silent where the Bible is silent, and don't read into the Scriptures things that are not there.
DHK

 

[neal4christ]

There is none, T2U.

While I do not believe in praying to the saints, Rev. 5:8 is pretty interesting. What is your understanding of it, DHK?

In Christ,
Neal

 

[neal4christ]

DHK,

You are not being silent on the topic. You have picked a side. Being silent is saying that the Scriptures don't say anything either way so you won't say anything either way. Yet you say that since the Bible does say anything that necessarily means no, it doesn't happen. That is not being silent.

In Christ,
Neal

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
There is no evidence in the Bible that saints in Heaven pray for those on earth, therefore they don't.
There is no evidence that pigs marry cows in Heaven, therefore they don't.
There is no evidence that there are Terriers in Heaven, therefore there are not.

And until one can give evidence to the contrary one must believe that the above does not take place. Give Biblical evidence that they do, then you will have a case. Otherwise remain silent where the Bible is silent, and don't read into the Scriptures things that are not there.
DHK

So all of creation, Heaven and Earth, are contained in the Bible?

By your logic, the bible doesn't mention Seminaries, so there shouldn't be any. The Bible doesn't mention pews and altar calls, so there shouldn't be any.

But the Bible does give us examples of praying to Angels and Saints.

Psalms 103:20-21
"Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!"

Psalms 148:1-2
"Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!"

Revelation 8:3-4
"angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God"

Now the above is a problem for you because either these are prayers of saints on earth, which you claim the Saints in Heaven have nothing to do with, or these are the prayers of the Saints in Heaven, which you claim their are none because the Saints in Heaven don't pray.

And also Revelation 5:8
"the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints"

 

[DHK]

You have gone from the ridiculous to the sublime. You are the frog that has jumped from the frying pan into the fire.

First the subject is Biblical doctrine, not: seminaries, cats, dogs, and whaterver you listed.
The Bible remains our final authority in all matters if faith and practice even in the seminaries that I advocate.
The Catholic Church may have a doctrine of "pewology," but we don't.

Psalms 103:20-21
"Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!"
--A psalm of praise. It has nothing to do with praying to saints. The psalmist is giving praise to God from the innermost of his heart. In Psalm 19 you read that the entire creation gives God glory. So what! God made it that way!

Psalms 148:1-2
"Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!"
--Same as above. The psalmist is giving praise to God. It has nothing to do with praying to saints. Everything that God has created gives glory to God. The psalmist admits this.

Revelation 8:3-4
"angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God"

Now the above is a problem for you because either these are prayers of saints on earth, which you claim the Saints in Heaven have nothing to do with, or these are the prayers of the Saints in Heaven, which you claim their are none because the Saints in Heaven don't pray.

I don't have a problem with this at all. It is very similar to Revelation 5:8 so I won't bother to quote that one. In both verses who is the one that presents the prayers to God. It is NOT the saints in Heaven. They are not the ones interceding. An angel presents bowls of incence containing the prayers of the saints in chapter 5, and here the incense combined with the smoke of the censor from the angel rise in symbolic fashion with the prayers of the saints of God. There is no hint anywhere of any of the saints of Heaven praying for those on earth.
Don't put words in my mouth (especially lying ones). Where did I say there were no saints in Heaven? I said that saints in Heaven do not intercede for us on earth. That is a man-made doctrine from the Catholic Church, that only the Catholics believe.
Whatever the meaning of these verses be, it is certain that the saints in Heaven are not praying; it is the angel that is offering the prayers of the saints, presumably on earth.
The whole context is one of vengeance, suffering, and the coming of the Lord. How long will God withhold His vengeance on the wickedness of the world. How long will it be before He comes and sets up His Kingdom? "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done." "Even so Lord Jesus come." "Lord, will thou at this time set up thy kingdom." The early believers suffered terribly under the rule of Nero. Paul was martyred by him. Peter was crucified during his reign of terror. Here is a picture of the prayers of the saints of God, accumulatively, the ones throughout the ages, praying for the Lord to come and set up his kingdom, for the suffering that they have endured.
It has nothing to do with any saints in Heaven praying.
DHK

 

[neal4christ]

Whatever the meaning of these verses be, it is certain that the saints in Heaven are not praying; it is the angel that is offering the prayers of the saints, presumably on earth.

Why is it certain? Why are you certain this is the case? What is your warrant for such a conclusion? You admit you presume; why is it not okay for Catholic to presume? The bottom line is the phrase "prayers of the saints." Why is your conclusion okay but a Catholic's is not? Is not this passage in Revelation a view into what is going on before the throne of God? Where is his throne located here on earth?

In Christ,
Neal

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Why is it certain? Why are you certain this is the case? What is your warrant for such a conclusion? You admit you presume; why is it not okay for Catholic to presume? The bottom line is the phrase "prayers of the saints." Why is your conclusion okay but a Catholic's is not? Is not this passage in Revelation a view into what is going on before the throne of God? Where is his throne located here on earth?

In Christ,
Neal

It is certain because of what the Scriptures say Neal. Read them. In both cases it is the angel, not any saints that offer the prayers.
DHK

 

[neal4christ]

It is certain because of what the Scriptures say Neal. Read them. In both cases it is the angel, not any saints that offer the prayers.

Whose prayers are they, DHK? Who makes the prayer?

In Christ,
Neal

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Whose prayers are they, DHK? Who makes the prayer?

In Christ,
Neal

They are the prayers of the saints on earth, not in Heaven. It is not only speculation, but also foolishness to think that these prayers would be prayers offered up by anyone in Heaven.
First, there is no where in the Bible that teaches that any person outside of the person of Christ or the Holy Spirit has the power to interced on our behalf. To teach otherwise is heresy. We have but one mediator.
Secondly, there is no need for any saint in Heaven to intercede for any one of us, neither is there any proof that they even see what is happening on earth.
Thirdly, the Bible promises concerning those that go to Heaven that there will be no more sorrow there--no pain, no tears, etc. Christ will wipe all tears from their eyes. The saints in Heaven cannot possibly be praying for the saints on earth, watching all the pain and suffering on earth, be knowledgeable about all the pain and suffering on earth--IF--there is no sorrow, tears, and pain in Heaven. It wouldn't be much of a Heaven if the saints of Heaven were forced to look at the wickedness, suffering and crime that goes on in this world. I don't believe that is the case. The concentration of a saint is Heaven is on Christ not on the world, or the saints in the world. Christ will demand all of our attention, as He should now.
"Thy will be done; on earth as it is in Heaven."
DHK

 

[neal4christ]

First, there is no where in the Bible that teaches that any person outside of the person of Christ or the Holy Spirit has the power to interced on our behalf.

So you don't ask others to pray for you, do you? I mean, come on, at least be consistent.

Also, as I stated before, you are not silent where the Bible is silent. You have taken a side using your understanding, just like the Catholics take the other side. And I am sorry, but the Revelation verses do not describe a scene on earth, but rather a scene in heaven. I do not teach or even necessarily believe in asking saints to pray for you, but I am honest enough to not dismiss it outright with no evidence that it doesn't take place. And if you want to play the proof card, please give some that they don't see what happens on the earth. Or is that just what you believe, based on your interpretation of the Scriptures, without any solid evidence?

In Christ,
Neal

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
Psalms 103:20-21
"Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!"
--A psalm of praise. It has nothing to do with praying to saints. The psalmist is giving praise to God from the innermost of his heart. In Psalm 19 you read that the entire creation gives God glory. So what! God made it that way!

The psalmist is addressing the Angels, hosts, and those who do Gods will.

"you his angels"
"you mighty ones who do his word"
"all his hosts"
"his ministers that do his will"

To say that the psalmist is directly addressing God while using these words is absurd.

DHK, you continue to read your preconceived notions into the Scripture.

An angel presents bowls of incence containing the prayers of the saints in chapter 5, and here the incense combined with the smoke of the censor from the angel rise in symbolic fashion with the prayers of the saints of God. There is no hint anywhere of any of the saints of Heaven praying for those on earth.

So the Angels present the prayers to God. But of course you must now make it symbolic in order to fit your preconceived ideas.

Even if it is symbolic, what does the symbolism convey? Certainly not that God's perfected creations do not participate in our prayers.

Whatever the meaning of these verses be, it is certain that the saints in Heaven are not praying; it is the angel that is offering the prayers of the saints, presumably on earth.

"Presumably"

Neal already addressed this. I'll let it go at that.