Men, authority, and their women

Add a moon pie to that RC and you have all the elements for Communion.

As to headship, I don't think God is any more likely to lead my heart than my wife's. Some of course would argue that my seminary degree and ordination make God less likely to lead my heart.

Joshua

 

I have all of these post about "submissive" women and "head of householda' husbands ... this sad sick silly division of responsibilities. I real only pity for men and women ]caught up in this travisity and misreading of the wonderfully liberating Word of God. How sad! null[/B

 

Hmmmm . . . well, what is so hard to understand about:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>the head of the woman is the man;<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>wife see that she reverence her husband.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not above my husband, nor is he above me . . . most especially in the eyes of God. We are heirs together of the grace of life. As Christians, we are to submit one to another . . . and yet, God tells me that I am to submit to and be subject to my husband within the affairs of our marriage and family.

My husband is never told to submit to me within the marriage and family, though he is commanded to love me and nourish me and cherish me (that's my favorite one! What woman doesn't want to be cherished!) because I am part of his body.

We are one flesh, and yet he has the greater responsibility before the Lord for the guidance of our marraige and family.

Why do we not have a problem understanding children obey your parents, and yet we balk about a wife being under her husband's leadership?

[ August 08, 2001: Message edited by: KeeperOfMyHome ]

 

"Sad, sick, and silly ! It's God's design, not mine. If you follow it, your household will have harmony. If you don't- why do think 60% of marriages end in divorce and most children grow up never learning what obedience and selflessness means?

Titus 2:3-5 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; that they might teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the Word of God be not blasphemed.

"Sad, sick and silly," Sure, the world can blaspheme the Word of God, and in the process, over half of their marriages will end in divorce, and another generation of children will go to hell. That's what's really sad, sick, and silly. Great alliteration by the way!

[ August 08, 2001: Message edited by: Joy2 ]

 

If you have stomach problems, should you drink wine? "God" says yes:

"Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses." 1 Tim 5:23

If a doctor says otherwise, should we tell them that this is "God's design, not ours?"

Paul's letters are not general epistles, but true letters. We must keep this in mind before we go assuming that Paul speaking to a particular recipient in the 1st century A.D. necessarily constitutes the voice of God literally speaking to us here in the 21st century.

 

Ohhhh . . . I get it now . . . we can pick and choose which parts of the epistles we want to think apply to life in our generation. I see. Well, that just clears matters right up, BWSmith . . . NOT!

If what you say is true, then men do not have to love, nourish, nor cherish their wives . . . children do not have to obey their parents . . . we do not have to be kind one to another . . . we can divorce our spouse we any reason we see fit . . . spearation doesn't apply to us anymore, we can just associate with whomever we deem fit . . . etc etc etc . . .

How in the world are we to know which parts of Paul's epistles apply to us?

Now that's what I call silly and sad . . . and maybe a bit sick.

 

Wine in that context was strictly used as medicinal. Paul did not tell Timothy to go get drunk or even to go out and "socialize."

Makes a big difference when you look at it that way. Sorry BW, it's a no go argument.

 

Gen. 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply the sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

I Cor. 11:3, 14:34, Eph. 5:22, Col. 3:18, I Tim. 2:11, I Pet. 3:1,5,6

[ August 08, 2001: Message edited by: Joy2 ]

 

They say that there is as much divorce among evangelicals that everyone else ... maybe even more ... why is that? I can cite many more examples of divorce in household were father was the "head" and mother was "submissive." than I can in egualitarian marriages ... from personal knowledge. I still stand by my original statement ... submission in the way talked about by WOMEN who say they are submissive is sad, silly and sick. Sounds like sadomascism or some such thing ... these are just my thoughts on the subject ... BTW Paul could have meant that the water wasn't good that old Tim should drink wine as a alternative to water. This is a common practice in many places today and I am sure that was in the time of Jesus as well ...

 

Great personal opinion, now back it up with Scripture!

 

Bezalil, I agree. But please do me a favor and explain to Joy what you mean when you knock the term submissive because I think she may be misunderstanding. We're not speaking about being slaves or not having equality. We're talking about men being the spiritual leaders and having the final authority in matters where an agreement cannot be reached.
Gina

 

Bezalil is the one who is mis-understanding what we're saying. I think he things we're talking about slave-driving husbands and wimpy wives . . . though I assure you we're not!

Submission is simply deference . . . the submitting to another's wishes, opinion, or governance usually through deference or respect (reverence). We are equal to our husbands, and yet he is the head of the home. A home needs a leader, someone to be responsible for the ourcome, if you will. That person is the husband, and was chosen by God to fill that role.

In a marriage, both husband and wife are servants to the other . . . notice I said servants and not slaves. However, each serves the other in different ways. God says a woman's desire shall be to her husband, that she is to be his help . . . and the husband is to love the wife as Christ loved the church and gave himeself for it; his is to cherish his wife, as well as nourish her.

[ August 09, 2001: Message edited by: KeeperOfMyHome ]

 

KH, I sent you a private message, butit didn't work. Software error it said. But it was a good one! It was a great one! It would have gone down in private message greatness!
If by some miracle you get it, let me go. Ok, it was just a normal message.
Gina
Oops. know, not go

 

Ah pooey! It didn't come through Gina! Hmmmm . . . can you remember what you typed? Because you sure have my curiousity up! I bet your witty humor, or sarcasim!, was at it's peak! LOL

 

No, oh my goodness, I don't mean wife beaters and slave drivers. There is a balance, and when the balance is there, submission works quite nicely, because God set it up that way. I find it really funny that we are arguing about it with men, though. Usually we are the ones arguing a little more the other way- trying to get the men to be loving and not so domineering!

 

I don't think it is written in concrete or in Scripture that a 'man' should be he spiritual head of the family. A family is headed by parents (when possible) who join together in the decision making process. Sometimes its him and sometimes its her. It is a joint venture of equals. I would go crazy if my wife gave into to all of my decisions. Together we do pretty good. I don't like "submissive" simpering silly men or women. Unfortutnately only 25% of families have both a mother and a father ...

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bezalel:
I don't think it is written in concrete or in Scripture that a 'man' should be he spiritual head of the family.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then you have obviously never read your Bible!! Get a grip Bezalel . . . and quit telling us what you think! Give us something concrete from the word of God. What part of "head of the wife" don't you understand? What part of "wives submit" do you not understand?

BTW, please stop calling me, and others here, names like silly, simpering, sick, and sad!! I don't like it, and I will not put up with it. We are following God's way for marriage and family, and if you don't like it, that's your business. But it is not appropriate, nor conductive to having folks see your point of view, if you are calling them names and slandering them.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bezalel:
I don't like "submissive" simpering silly men or women<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not to misunderstand this statement...but I do take offense to this statement. I AM submissive to my husband's leading. That's not to say that he doesn't respect my ideas and opinions. We aren't Rick & Lucy Ricardo.

Sorry, I don't take kindly to be called a "simpering silly woman" because I submit to my husband.

Kathy
&lt;&gt;&lt;

 

Keeper,

It might be more accurate to say that you are following your understanding of God's plan. I certainly have no intention of insulting a system that clearly works for you and many of the women on this board. Nevertheless, I know many women, including the one I married, for whom it would not work. I think it is safe to say that God has a different plan for each of us.

Joshua

 

I agree, I could do without the name calling as well!

I am not talking about laying down and becoming a door mat. It still can not be refuted that the Bible says it, as we have already given Scripture references to. To deny that it is there, or admit that it is but say it doesn't really mean it, is to deny the whole purpose for having 2 genders.

We are equal in value, but separate in purpose. In a company, there can be only one boss, but the workers are just as important. In a body, there is only one head, but the heart is just as important. In both cases, the head or the boss gets to lead.

In our case, the man is the head of the wife in order to picture that Christ is Head of the Church. This doesn't make a woman less valuable or unequal to a man, just different in purpose or her role.