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Men Marrying Late -- Or Not At All

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Martin, Aug 7, 2006.

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  1. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    ....you just don't get how offensive that statement is, do you?

    The exception to the rule.....all of the rest of single people are pathetic....

    As I said earlier to you.....just forget the whole thing.

    I'm signing off....

    Oh, and by the way, you said that all you were saying was that when a society rejects marriage that it is headed for disaster?

    That is NOT what he said at ALL!!!!!
     
    #61 Scarlett O., Aug 15, 2006
  2. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    Scarlett, I guess it depends on your outlook in life. If you are always looking to be a martyr, then yes, I suppose that statement would be offensive to you. But if your outlook is more positive, you can take that statement as, "Wow - I am exceptional in that God has blessed me with the special, unique gift of singleness. I'm going to use this special gift for the glory of God."

    Who ever equated singleness with "pathetic"?

    Oh, and Swaimj did say that:

    "When we see an entire society in which the number of singles is growing and marriage is being delayed or avoided alltogether, we are watching a society that is headed for disaster. That is what Al Mohler is commenting on and I agree with his viewpoint."

    Lastly, I don't appreciate your screaming as commonly denoted by ALL CAPS.
     
    #62 Andy T., Aug 15, 2006
  3. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    ==Congrats on your marriage.

    Btw according to Debbie Maken, who has written a book that Al Mohler endorses, your delaying of marriage shows that you are a typical irresponsible male. You should have sought marriage early and shame on you for delaying marriage until you are 41! You spent years in the sin of "the undue delay of marriage" and you rejected accountability that should have stopped you from "being chronically single and causing someone else to forfeit marriage".

    O, those are not my views. In my view, based on what I read in your post, you got married when it was your time. You did not waste your single years, rather you spent them doing what God has called you to do. The view in the above paragraph is that of Debbie Maken who has written a book that Albert Mohler has endorsed. You can read one of her articles here.

    I like Al Mohler but I must disagree with him on this point. I must also say "SHAME" on Mohler for endorsing Maken's book. If it is anything like her articles it is un-Biblical and full of male bashing. Nobody should be guilted into an early marriage or marriage at all. There are some of us, true we are a minority, who just don't wish to get married. We are not living in sin, nor is our singleness a sin "just like premarital sex" (quoting Debbie Maken).


    ==My church does not have a singles ministry and I enjoy that fact. In fact I am one of only two single guys in my entire Sunday School class. The other guy is older than me and is divorced. There are no single women in my Sunday School class, either. I like that because there is no pressure. I am at a point with them that I can just enjoy being part of the class and not worry about (a) someone trying to set me up (which I HATE) and (b) someone trying to get me to go out with them (since there are no single women in the class).


    ==I have never had that problem, to be honest. However I am glad getting married helped you overcome that issue. I think this is proof that all people are different, we are not all the same. That means we have to be careful before we start, and I am NOT saying that you are doing this, trying to make everyone else conform to our experiences and feelings. It should also come as a wake up call, to the "willful singleness is a sin" crowd, that they should not twist/ignore/add to Scripture to further their social or political agendas.


    ==I am glad you realize this important point. While I fully agree that people like myself are the exception, I do believe that most people should be married. I would like to see Mohler and mainly Maken realize the point you just made. I wish they would stop tring to put single Christian men into bondage or forcing them to make a decision they maynot, for whatever reason, be ready to make. I am not affected by Mohler or Maken personally. However I have tired of people who go beyond Scripture in this area. Thus my series of blogs on this issue in response to Maken (see my blog).

    ==Mohler, and this is a mistake, includes lost people in his assesment of the situation. I am not concerned about lost people in this context. Lost people will behave like lost people, they will live in sin. That should not surprise us (though I am surprised how many times it surprises Mohler). They need the Gospel.

    As far as Christians are concerned...I don't see this as a big problem. The majority of Christian men, at least in this area, are married. The same was true when I went to Southeastern Seminary. So I am not sure that I see the problem, in the church, that Mohler/Maken do.

    But, then again, maybe I am just overlooking something?
     
    #63 Martin, Aug 15, 2006
  4. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

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    Martin, Scarlett and others.

    I see how offensive my question must have sounded when I ask the reason you chose to stay single. I now see the perceived intent and for that I apologize.

    I guess in my veiw, this is important to know if one is to comment on one being single. That is the first question I ask when I get a young preacher who joins the Church which I see may be a little insensitive. I have a lot of young adults and my God how the wolves sharpen their teeth and drop in and out of our Church because of this. I know there are single folks who choose to stay that way so they can, "play the field" or "keep their options open". Also, we humans have natural feelings and desires of the heart. I think that is enough said on that except to say that their is also married people who cheat.

    In the Church environment even more so than society as a whole, I beleive we pre-judge and assume motives and reasoning are selfish and worldly as opposed to giving one the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps instead we should believe first, you are good Christians and good Christians have good hearts. You have made me take time and see your view and I thank you for this...

    I know around here, single clergy making their way through the congregation's young girls has put the Church in the defensive posture. It is logical to believe if it happens from clergy then it can happen in the last pew or backdoor of the Church. Often single men find the church as a great place to meet "good girls" but I guess we caused this with our singles clubs etc...

    From your perspective, what can I as a pastor do to better support my chosen single folks as well as singles looking for relationships? I do want to give those who are shy or hessitant to friend the opposite sex a pressure free place to socialize and meet if they so choose. On the other hand, I see we are singling out a group of people and isolating them from the rest of the Church. Would it be better to just have men and women groups instead of single and married?

    Please think long and hard because I want to play devils advocate as I truly want to redirect or restructure these programs within my care.
     
    #64 LeBuick, Aug 15, 2006
  5. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Was it something I said?

    Scarlett O., perhaps you have stopped reading this thread, but I want to address some of your responses.

    Scarlett, my statement "the normal pattern for human existence is marriage" does not mean that one has to be married to have a "normal human existence". Rather, I clearly stated that some are exceptionally gifted to be single. But only some are. Not all. Certainly not most. Probably not many.
     
    #65 swaimj, Aug 15, 2006
  6. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Amen . . . Amen . . . Amen!



     
    #66 El_Guero, Aug 15, 2006
  7. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Your Bible . . .

     
    #67 El_Guero, Aug 15, 2006
  8. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    IMHO. If people practiced the whole counsel of God, we wouldn't have churches full of singles that are afraid of marriage.



     
    #68 El_Guero, Aug 15, 2006
  9. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Martin,

    I have not read Mohler extensively on this topic and I am not familiar with the other author you referenced at all. I did find this summarized argument that you put forth interesting:
    I would say that this paragraph described my pre-marital days pretty accurately. I was quite irresponsible. I could have married earlier, I'm fairly sure. I look back on some of the girls I knew and I think that several of them were excellent prospects for marriage. I do not look back with regret because I believe that God is sovereign, however, some of my choices to reject certain girls were choices that were very selfish on my part. I have two friends in particular; seminary buddies, who got married late (one did and the other is about to get engaged) and I think they would tell you they got married late because of sinful attitudes that they had. I do not generalize from my personal experience and project my experience on others so that they become guilty of my past sins, but I know that in some cases my struggle was quite similar to others.

    A book that really influenced me is a book by George Gilder entitled Men and Marriage. It is not a Christian book and, to my knowledge, the author is not a Christian. Rather, he is a political conservative who is refuting the arguments of feminists regarding men and marriage.

    It is always dangerous to take general information and to begin applying it to specific situations. In specific situations there can be exceptions, unusual circumstances, and anomalies that create exceptions. We both would probably agree that homosexuality is a sinful lifestyle. But there are always homosexuals who can give anecdotes about people who have lived that lifestyle and been very happy. But generally, a culture in which an increasing number of men are refusing to marry is a culture that has some immediate problems and some long-term unpleasant consequences.
     
    #69 swaimj, Aug 15, 2006
  10. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Swaimj,

    Congratulations!

    Keep praying for me ;)

    Wayne
     
    #70 El_Guero, Aug 15, 2006
  11. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    I feel better now and can make an intelligent remark without being emotional.

    I left my house three hours ago in tears and went shopping. Stereotypical, I know, but it happens. I spent too much money on a pair of bright red shoes, but it made me feel better.

    Swaimj, you gave your successful testimony and I am honestly glad that you have found a great woman and pray for the early salvation of your child.

    Let me share my successful testimony.

    I am not a martyr nor a pessemistic person.

    I am single by choice, for now, and I believe that God has ordained, for now, for me to be thus.

    I have a very successful career that God called me to. I am have a professional reputation that extends over the entirety of my state. I am published professionally and since it has been made known that I took an early retirement last summer, I have received job offers that you would not believe.

    I am going back to work in the classroom very soon. I just feel that despite what I have been offered, God wants me in the "trenches" of the classroom. He does have other plans for my life in future years, but it's His call and He won't take that desire for working with the children away from me. So, for now, I am going back to the classroom.

    Let me be as humble as I can.....I have garnered professional respect from a multide of people and organizations. I am designing and writing the entire curriculum for a charter school that will be starting in my school district soon. People that I don't even know call me for professional advice and opinions.

    God has blessed me financially and given me every single thing that could possibly make me happy and content. God has been better to me that I could ever deserve. I don't know why He loves me so.

    I am well-respected at church too, but it's been a much tougher path to get there. I love my church, even though they are a little too fundamentalist for me, and they love me in return. But it's taken more "work" to come to a place where I am considered just as valuable of a church member as everyone else there. I don't resent that.....I just don't understand it. As I said, my church family does love me.....

    But respecting me....that's been a tough one. The church is "family" oriented and women and especially men who have no family aren't easily accepted in my church.

    We once had a singles Sunday School class (ages 35-50). Some were single by choice, by divorce, and by the death of a spouse. We were not a single's "ministry" because we did not want to promote our own agendas.

    We were a "service" class. We bought groceries for the poor, took impoverished children on shopping trips for school clothes, hosted the preacher and his wife a 25th wedding anniversary celebration, and just took what the bible said about putting other people's needs ahead of your own literally.

    We didn't "toot" our own horn. Many people in the church didn't even know about alot of the money we spent or things we did.

    The married couple who led our class moved to another town. The church disbanded our Sunday School Class because they said that only a married couple could teach us. They wouldn't let any of the talented bible teachers who were single lead the class at all. There was not one married couple in the church who would "take us in" (as if we were orphans), so the church disbanded the class.

    I can't tell you what that did to some of the people in the class (about 25). Some moved their letter and some, defeatedly, are not going to church anywhere.

    I understand that married people in the church don't know what to do with us. I was talking with some married friends at my church last year about a woman in our "circle", but who was from another church, who was recently widowed. One of the ladies said in anger, "You know those single people have taken her in and I think that's terrible. Those people are soooo weird!"

    Everyone standing around agreed with her. I said nothing. Suddenly they realized that they had forgotten that I was single and the tears began to flow from the woman who said it and I tried to tell them all that it was alright, that I was not offended and for us to change the subject, but they were very embarrassed.

    So, I have a wonderful life. Career-wise, relationship-wise, and church-wise. Do I wish that I was married? Yes. Am I grieved about it....no. God will take care of it all. I trust Him and believe that His plan for me is perfect and best.

    It just takes more out of me amongst Christian brothers and sisters to get the same respect as a single woman than it does with the public in general.

    Oh well, I do feel much better and am sorry if my emotional outburst was deemed as hateful.

    I have happy life and new pair of red shoes. I think I'll wear them to church on Sunday........:flower:
     
    #71 Scarlett O., Aug 15, 2006
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2006
  12. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    ==I don't see that as a reality...but I guess I could be wrong? I just don't see alot of single Christian guys in the church, who desire to marry, wasting anytime getting married.

    Btw, where in the Bible is there a command to marry?
     
    #72 Martin, Aug 15, 2006
  13. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    ==I don't know, I am simply addressing the situation of Christians in the church. To be honest I think our culture is pretty much gone anyway. Our focus, with them, is to preach the gospel message. After they are saved we can worry about getting them to live right.
     
    #73 Martin, Aug 15, 2006
  14. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Scarlett O.

    Thanks for your response. Congratulations on the new shoes!

    I think your testimony of singleness is one of godly success. You sound like a person who is well-rounded. Jesus' example is that, as a child, he grew in wisdom, stature, and in favor with God and man. Your testimony indicates that you are growing in these areas of your life. Praise God.

    Mohler's comments in the article originally referenced on this thread deal with men who are living quite differently from the way you are living. They are often relatively poor, they are uneducated, and they are socially disconnected. And it seems that this is a lifestyle they have chosen. The article that Mohler is referencing ran in the New York Times several weeks ago. What is described in the article is a very foolish lifestyle, yet it is becoming more prevalent among men in American society. My point is that this is a real concern which should be discussed. Discussing a foolish lifestyle among some (and a growing number of single American men) is not a condemnation of anyone or everyone who is single. I hope this helps to clarify where I am coming from.
     
    #74 swaimj, Aug 15, 2006
  15. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    ==Thats ok. You were not the first, and I know you will not be the last, person to ask that question of me (and other singles).


    ==I am very aware of the "wolves" that you speak of. Several years ago a guy I grew up with started coming to my church. At first I was happy to see him but that happiness turned to sadness when I realized what he was doing, picking up dates. O, and it worked like a charm for him I can tell you. The college age girls were swarming around him like flies on raw meat. Sadly I was too young (physically and in the faith) to say much of anything. I left that church a few months later.

    Sadly it has been my experience that too many Christian young people fall quickly for the wolves. In part I blame their parents for not teaching them Biblical principles of dating (etc). Though I realize such blame may not always be fair since some of those young people I am sure are not saved and therefore they fit in with the wolves and not the sheep.


    ==Wow. When I first read that it really hit me hard. I must admit that does not happen for me much on these boards. We are all guilty of that, I know I am as much as the next person, so I am not pointing fingers. My "rant" about Maken is in reference to her writings on this subject. In those writings Maken calls single Christian men "irresponsible" and says that Christians who are willfully "chronically single" are "causing someone else to forfeit marriage" and are in "sin just like premarital sex". Such remarks are un-Biblical, untrue in many cases, unfair, and cold hearted. Maybe she is being too general, maybe she is speaking from bad experiences in her past, or maybe she is just confused? I don't know the answer. I just hate to think about the single Christians, who are trying their best to live for Jesus, who read that and are being made to feel guilty and sinful. Of course those feelings are false since Scripture never says men are under "divine obligation...to marry". It bothers me, deeply, when I see someone like Mohler promoting a person who writes those type of things. I may know better than some but what about those who don't? What about those who are burdened by Maken's false anti-male guilt? I don't know.

    ==Actually I agree and that is one reason I am opposed to singles groups. I was saying that years ago. As I have said I am one of only two single males in my Sunday School class, and all of the women are married. So that type of thing is not happening.

    ==Treat them as you treat everyone else. Personally I don't like it when someone treats me different because I am single. I like to be treated like every other person in church. Btw I would not advise "thoughtful set-ups". I was very uncomfortable when my pastor tried to get me to ask out this lady in my Sunday School class. I knew that this lady was hanging around me alot, after all I am not blind, but I was trying to ignore the situation hoping she would take a hint and go away. Well was I wrong! When my pastor brought the subject up, carefully, I was polite, kind, and even tried to help my pastor out of that uncomfortable moment.:laugh: He has never tried that again, poor guy. I really felt sorry for him. The lady has since left our church.

    ==I don't know. Since I am not interested in finding a wife (etc) I can't say how that should be handled. I would caution, again, against trying to set people up. While it does work, at times, it can also lead to very uncomfortable moments and hard feelings. It is a dangerous path...
     
    #75 Martin, Aug 15, 2006
  16. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    Thank you and consider youself clarified. :flower:
     
    #76 Scarlett O., Aug 15, 2006
  17. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    BTW

    The same place it has been since Moses wrote it, or Our Lord and Savior confirmed it.

     
    #77 El_Guero, Aug 15, 2006
  18. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    The above cannot be true for all single men because some are called to be eunuchs (look up the word before you desire this . . . )

    He who knows right and does it not, to him it is sin.

    If someone is not born a eunuch, or not called to be made a eunuch, then remaining chronically single would truly cause someone to forfeit their partner in marriage - or maybe live in sin.

    If the truth is cold hearted, then so be it.
     
    #78 El_Guero, Aug 15, 2006
  19. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    Why do you keep ducking the question? Wouldn't it be easy just to post the reference???
     
    #79 StefanM, Aug 15, 2006
  20. gekko

    gekko New Member

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    i guess i dont like asking for money - 'tis all. :)
    i like how paul washer does his ministry with heartcry missionary society.

    main reason: dont like asking for money - missionaries shouldn't have to ask for money - like you kind of insinuated - should be supported already.

    unfortunately - most churches fund relationship/seeker-sens. evangelism. :(
     
    #80 gekko, Aug 15, 2006
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