and get started on our supper
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Men who perhaps aren't accustomed to discussing the Bible with women ....
- Thread starter Scarlett O.
- Start date
and get started on our supper
[WAR STORY ALERT] So I'm at work the other day and the women folk were nattering around the coffee pot talking about dishwashers. One lady hated her Whirlpool and another loved her GE and yet another was yammering on about hard water spots etc. I chime in that I've had the same diswasher for 34 years with nary a problem. Well, didn't that little gabfest want to know all the details. "What kind of dishwasher is that?" they asked.
I answered, "Well, her folks named her Stephanie but she answers to Honey most of the time."
Apparently, nattering womenfolk can moved pretty quick when they want to.[/WAR STORY ALERT]
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Ouch!! Have the cuts, abrasions and contusions from the beating healed yet?
Although, I expect we would agree on many areas regarding understanding the nature God’s creation and that women can tell when someone can understand them I believe you’ve missed my point that they typically don’t want to hear that YOU (a man) understand their thinking.
My experience with women is that very often they don’t want to be told by men “they have it/them/or their problem all figured out” and they hear this ALL THE TIME! Although not a professional counselor I have more than fair share of experience. For a little background comparison, this was especially apparent over this last Christmas season where in just one day I had 3 people (2 women and a couple) come to me in great emotional distress and their problems were bad enough that it affected me and I needed personal prayer and some time to work through what was becoming a bit overwhelming on my heart.
Another experience worth mentioning is I’ve known people who have gone to school to learn all the construction of building homes but in the field can’t drive a nail nor make a straight cut yet believe they know exactly what it takes to build a house. But I won’t write off your knowledge or experiences and hope for the same courtesy from you.
On a personal note, I have far more women friends than men friends for several reasons. First, I grew up around a lot of women and had a lot of girlfriends when I was younger, so more experience with them. Another reason is probably because I tend to speak much more gently to them and otherwise am rather rough. Today there are women who consider me like their brother they never had and their protector should they run into trouble. Women have been spilling their guts to me since my late teens and especially during my 20s. The reason for this is that I’m great listener that they feel comfortable with the way I handle what they tell me.
One thing I’ve come to understand about a lot of strong women is that they most certainly don’t want the man’s advice who thinks he has them all figured out and thinks he has the “simple” solution to their problems. The slightest implication that they are simple, weaker little creatures that are overreacting according to your simple solutions you have pre-prepared for them is insulting to them for various reasons, some of which we men will not EVER fully understand but nonetheless this is eggshell ground which is wise to be VERY aware of.
Modern women are often very sensitive to being instructed by a man who believes their complex natures don’t take much to figure out and that is EXACTLY what they don’t want to hear when looking to the opposite sex for answers.
So yes, to say, “it doesn’t take much to figure out how they (women) think” is indeed a bold statement, really! That kind of comment commonly sends a clear message that I know for a fact that many women would roll their eyes at, there is no doubt in my mind that just the way you said it is going to be taken by some of them the way I said it, you having the credentials as a counselor or not. Many women are sick to death of men thinking they are easy to figure out and I’d suggest to you that you walk very softly when trying to relay to one that their thinking is simple or problems are easy to solve because they look at this as belittlement from an arrogant chauvinist who obviously does not understand the depth of their concerns. That’s my point.
Your scholarship will carry very little weight in the matter of their perception of such a comment. They see such a statement as “typical male nonsense” when it even hints at them being easy to figure out as belittlement and you will be putting up a wall whether you agree with me or realize it or not. If I wanted a woman to open up to me I would avoid that kind of statement like the plague!
You may have a lot figured out about how women think but in missing this red flag it is my opinion, take it leave it, women will radar in on it and be more guarded and less open to you by the mere implication that you believe they don’t take much to figure out. Whether you recognize your statement projecting that message or not is insignificant to me because I saw the red flag and know many women that would zero in that mindset and consider it offensive. Again FWIW, take it or leave it…I also understand that some people don’t think they can learn something about their business from someone outside it, although in my case as a new grad and recently licensed PTA I have had several classes in communication and neurology so I’m not entirely out of the educational loop.
BTW, on another note, although I would agree that the “way” the hemispheres of the brain come into play is “controlled” differently I would disagree that these regions are “not in use” in the man. I consider such broad-brushing a very shallow definition concerning the “tuning of the brain”. As a matter of fact there are recent studies/hypothesis on Einstein’s brain that the reason for his intellectual abilities is directly related to a stronger connection between the hemispheres of his brain. IMO, there is not enough study or understanding to be broad-brushing these connections and/or the use of them for the scientist to make these bold general assumptions between the genders. It takes a lot more figuring than supposed mapping of hemispheric communication to understand them complex creatures.
:type:
Slowly. :laugh:
madre has always been my intellectual equal and more times than not superior. It's not all that intimidating but there are times I wished she'd knock it off. :laugh: I joked with her once that if she died before me I was going to remarry. I said I was going to find a woman pretty as a new born calf that thought Mount Rushmore was caused by erosion. She replied, "That ought to last about a week."
We talk about the Bible all the time. Her experiences and perspectives are different from mine. I think that is part of God's design. We don't need to be carbon copies of each other. She wouldn't be much of a suitable helper if she had all the same strengths and weakness I had.
My thoughts exactly. :thumbs:
Wow! I had no idea this thread had taken this direction. I was just wanting to make sure that no one felt I had any animosity for the poster who claimed that women were spiritually shallow and content to be there.
Wow! It took quite a turn.
I am indeed dreadfully sorrowful that a handful of you believe that "most" women are emotional and have no interest in the deep doctrines of God's Word - (as if one is the causality of the other).
I have some things to ask and share about that, but, alas .... I have no energy to do so right now and I fear it may not be profitable anyway.
If anyone would like to talk about this beyond the superficial "observation", I think it would make for a perhaps eye-opening conversation.
If not, we can just let the thread die.
Wow! It took quite a turn.
I am indeed dreadfully sorrowful that a handful of you believe that "most" women are emotional and have no interest in the deep doctrines of God's Word - (as if one is the causality of the other).
I have some things to ask and share about that, but, alas .... I have no energy to do so right now and I fear it may not be profitable anyway.
If anyone would like to talk about this beyond the superficial "observation", I think it would make for a perhaps eye-opening conversation.
If not, we can just let the thread die.
I will give you an ancecdotal example of what I'm talking about. My wife and I are about 70, have five degrees (baccalaureate and higher) between us, and have spent a lifetime studying the Bible. She teaches a Sunday School class of women; I teach a class of men. She spends about an hour in preparation and I spend about six hours. I take an elaborate lesson plan into the class with cross references, commentary notes, Greek-English equivalents and history. I usually get rave reviews from my men. My wife goes in with nothing but her Bible (which she may or may not open) and talks off the top of her head for 45 minutes about how much God loves us, or something along that line. Her ladies wouldn't trade her for any other teacher. However, if we should trade places attendance would drop off rapidly.
I'm an LAC and LMFC. I see plenty of women, believe me. Assuming women gravitate to "feel good stuff" is pretty much what feminists used to call male chauvinism, and while I don't qualify it as being that lowly, it's pretty close.
. . . .
We don't think alike. God made us that way. But if we don't make an effort to understand that, and compartmentalize or marginalize one another -- women being just as guilty of that shortcut as are men -- we will miss the best of one another.
Something else to consider: Why do so few women major in chemistry and physics? I submit that it's not because they are hard (which they are), but it's because feeling and intuition will get you nowhere in these sciences.
By the way, I have a master's degree in counseling although I don't make a living with it anymore.
evenifigoalone
Well-Known Member
Same. I find it a little insulting, TBH.
Personally I find value in both, technical scholarly stuff--I'd find a Bible study based on that kind of info to be pretty interesting--and something that may lean a bit toward the "feel good" side.
Wow! I had no idea this thread had taken this direction. I was just wanting to make sure that no one felt I had any animosity for the poster who claimed that women were spiritually shallow and content to be there.
Scarlett O., you shouldn't waste two minutes of your time being concerned over any animosity another might have realized regarding your comment. Some people would gripe if they were being hung with a new rope!
When I was a kid my father used to tell me all the time, "There's two ways of doing things. The right way and the Marine Corps way!" Meaning, I suppose, you have to go along to get along?
Men think with their brains while women think with their hearts. Men hunt while women nest. It's amazing to me to witness the conflict most young women are faced with now-a-days. With all the pressure(s) from a sin cursed world and their perception of what they need to be when..., all they need to be is themselves. They are what they are just as the rest of us are. Fifth Avenue Ad Men only add to the confusion.
Women develop a sense of wisdom just as men do. The result of maturing. This individual wisdom leads in many directions. As for those so-called deep studies into the Bible..., often it just leads to vain babblings. My wife's perception on any given matter is usually different than mine and vise versa.
...take a guess at how much time my wife has spent worrying about once saved, always saved..., or the prospect of losing ones salvation. Consequently, she lives by faith. We both do. In the meantime, we will sit back and watch from the side line as the various fights rage on.
Scarlett O., you shouldn't waste two minutes of your time being concerned over any animosity another might have realized regarding your comment. Some people would gripe if they were being hung with a new rope!
When I was a kid my father used to tell me all the time, "There's two ways of doing things. The right way and the Marine Corps way!" Meaning, I suppose, you have to go along to get along?
Men think with their brains while women think with their hearts. Men hunt while women nest. It's amazing to me to witness the conflict most young women are faced with now-a-days. With all the pressure(s) from a sin cursed world and their perception of what they need to be when..., all they need to be is themselves. They are what they are just as the rest of us are. Fifth Avenue Ad Men only add to the confusion.
Women develop a sense of wisdom just as men do. The result of maturing. This individual wisdom leads in many directions. As for those so-called deep studies into the Bible..., often it just leads to vain babblings. My wife's perception on any given matter is usually different than mine and vise versa.
...take a guess at how much time my wife has spent worrying about once saved, always saved..., or the prospect of losing ones salvation. Consequently, she lives by faith. We both do. In the meantime, we will sit back and watch from the side line as the various fights rage on.
saturneptune
New Member
Post sounds like lots of tuition spent and no common sense. If she spends one hour and you spend six, maybe she is six times more efficient in using her time and her thought process is six times faster. It has absolutely nothing to do with gender and gender has absolutely nothing to do with spiritual maturity or in depth doctrine.
For your information, the sciences like you mention are one of the most rapidly growing fields for young women graduates. There are many, many men teachers. Being wired different to a degree is true, but not at the expense of ones life dream or goals. Intuition is present in all of us. Animals have it when an earthquake or other natural disaster nears.
Given all of that, I cannot imagine why you do not practice counseling anymore.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
No, I got that completely. I find it odd that you would believe a woman would not want to hear that someone "understands" them.
One, no, they don't hear that "all the time." What they hear "all the time" is the tripe that's being spewed about their "emotionalism" and their "lack of intellectual depth" on this thread. Two, your characterization of how their problems "are all figured out" is not anywhere close to what I'm talking about. So far removed as to be on another continent. The way you have described that thought being communicated is condescending, marginalizing, and compartmentalizing them. If you believe that is what I'm saying, you didn't read the rest of my posts on here very thoroughly.
I'm glad you're a great listener, but that doesn't equate to effectively communicating to women without marginalizing and compartmentalizing them or appearing condescending. Your apparent belief that they come to men to have problems solved is utter nonsense. They are much broader in their interpersonal relationships across gender lines than you give them credit for.
Again, you mischaracterize what I said elsewhere because you think you "know" what I mean in saying that women are easier to communicate with than the men on this thread make them out to be. I am not talking about their problems in the first place. I am talking about their emotional and intellectual depth, and your comments indicate that you have no better idea what that means, or how to deal with it, than others here.
Again, obviously, you haven't a clue what I've been saying. But thanks for trying. The rest of your comments are totally off-topic to the conversation.
saturneptune
New Member
I have read over your posts in this thread, and we are pretty much in agreement. You target the differences how we are wired different, especially emotionally. All of us are individuals, and all have emotions. I do believe there are more women with good intuition than mean in general. What I was trying to say about intellect and spiritual maturity between the two genders, is that women have the capacity to excel in both, way beyond some men (some on this board). The difference in this area, if there is any, would be the angle the issue is looked at, or how it is explained.
When it comes to bringing up children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, how many women do we have to thank for leading children through the early Sunday School years, and at home, reading Bible stories and praying with children. With as many fathers as have abandoned their families, mothers are one of the most precious gifts those children will ever have.
Then you are failing to show it and now appear to try to cover it by scooting by it with the direction of the rest of your post.
It is the "way" in which it is expressed that they (women) are understood which was the point, but in detail I’ve made that clear and see no reason to repeat myself.
Yes, they do hear that all the time, which again demonstrates you are skipping by the point I made about your comment! And what they hear on this board is beside the point and amounts to a smokescreen on the issue I brought and clarified…
I fully understand that is not what you were talking about but my point was in regards to what they typically hear from the type of comment you made.
Apparently it is difficult for you to admit that there may be a better approach and rather than consider the criticism are taking offense and going on the attack that I haven’t read you well.
Recognizing that trying to give you a little advice is quickly turning into something unprofitable I’ll pass your further attempts to be condescending to me for daring to critique your approach. But this I will address:
This clearly demonstrates you either missed my point or in offense for my daring to critique are simply just on the attack with a strawman. That accusation is exactly the opposite of my points made that women do NOT want to hear we have simple solutions to their problems. Asking for, or communicating with a male for his spiritual point of view is FAR from your suggestion that I have contended that they come to males to have their problems solved! Agaion, that is the opposite of what I said! My points about being a good listener and the multiple times I alluded to that women's problems are NOT “simply understood” (and should NOT be referred to that way) totally refute your bogus strawman conclusion and attempt to argue such a point with me..
Again, you seem on the offense for me daring to critique you and it seems odd that make this claim of mischaracterization while you obvious go about trying to mischaracterize me and this simply confirms my suspicions that you consider yourself above reproach. (something I tried to address early on in my prior post in hope to avoid this type of conversation)
If you’re referring to your supposed lock position on the hemispheric communication explanation (another error on your behalf in which I dared to critique your expertise and opinions
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...Yeah, and thanks for trying to you too.
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thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
No, I was referring to the fact that my post does not say they "are not in use." It says the male brain uses specific parts of one hemisphere or the other to accomplish specific tasks while the female brain is more diffused allowing women to utilize significant portions of both hemispheres for a variety of tasks. In women, both hemispheres communicate better with one another than they do in men. Or perhaps you'd like to read the post again in order to more definitively attack my conclusions, which are not really mine, but proven in research? Feel free.
It appears you simply want to argue, perhaps because I am licensed in what you and others may consider a "secular" art that is not (supposedly) biblically affiliated or approved. Or maybe there's another reason. Whatever, I don't feel the need to repeat myself for the benefit of someone who doesn't want to hear it in the first place, so, good day and God bless.
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Zenas, thank you for your insight and wisdom, punctuated by years of experience.
If only because of that, your post would bear weight, but also because I am a female and have noticed these same things, I can say there is truth in your post.
Whether people like it or not, there are inherent differences in males and females.
Some really do enjoy the deeper theological discussions. I happen to be one of them and because of that, it's been very difficult to relate to the majority of women in average situations. I've learned to curb my conversations unless I come across a like-minded female, which is rare. It is much more common to find someone of the same mindset on a place like this message board than in your average church service. In fact, I've been guided out of "men's" specialized classes because I'm the only one that showed interest in the topic that attracted only men (and they were uncomfortable having just one woman there) and guided towards the study where the woman were attracted, which was purely CHOICE, which just happened to be much more emotionally based and much, much less theologically based. The main one sticking in my mind right now was when I nearly cried because I wanted to study the reformation and got sent with the girls to study "how to have more joy." :laugh:
People, when you come across a 70 something year old, it might be smart to LISTEN to them. They tend to have seen a lot more than your average bear and here you have someone not only with a lifetime of experience, which most of us do not have, but also with the education to back up the life experiences. I'm a bit taken back that people seem to not be paying attention and are so ready to just dismiss his words as "just another post." When you have someone with this much experience, paying attention is a good thing and meeting the words with some degree of thoughtfulness is just plain old common decency.
If only because of that, your post would bear weight, but also because I am a female and have noticed these same things, I can say there is truth in your post.
Whether people like it or not, there are inherent differences in males and females.
Some really do enjoy the deeper theological discussions. I happen to be one of them and because of that, it's been very difficult to relate to the majority of women in average situations. I've learned to curb my conversations unless I come across a like-minded female, which is rare. It is much more common to find someone of the same mindset on a place like this message board than in your average church service. In fact, I've been guided out of "men's" specialized classes because I'm the only one that showed interest in the topic that attracted only men (and they were uncomfortable having just one woman there) and guided towards the study where the woman were attracted, which was purely CHOICE, which just happened to be much more emotionally based and much, much less theologically based. The main one sticking in my mind right now was when I nearly cried because I wanted to study the reformation and got sent with the girls to study "how to have more joy." :laugh:
People, when you come across a 70 something year old, it might be smart to LISTEN to them. They tend to have seen a lot more than your average bear and here you have someone not only with a lifetime of experience, which most of us do not have, but also with the education to back up the life experiences. I'm a bit taken back that people seem to not be paying attention and are so ready to just dismiss his words as "just another post." When you have someone with this much experience, paying attention is a good thing and meeting the words with some degree of thoughtfulness is just plain old common decency.
evenifigoalone
Well-Known Member
In my experiences people's experiences tend to be colored by their own personal biases...including mine.
Maybe there's some truth to it, or maybe there isn't. Actually it seems to me that both "sides" represented here aren't in as much disagreement as one would think, since they both acknowledge that there are differences between men and women. Maybe to differing degrees.
I do question the idea that women tend to go for the less spiritually intellectual stuff (if that is truly the case), as far as that being part of their nature as women goes. Is it a product of nature, or maybe it is a product of nurture? Maybe some of both?
See, it seems to me that assuming that all women go for the less intellectual stuff because that's their nature is guilty of the "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy. There would be other factors to consider.
Now as far as the studies on differences between men and women go, I have not done a lot of research on that, so on that field I can't say much of anything.
Me, honestly, as a women I'd love to attend a Bible study that delves into the details. I've kinda wondered why more of them don't do that; whenever they do I enjoy it. That said, I'm not against things dealing primarily with heart issues and I think they have their place, too.
But I honestly can't help but take some offense to the idea that that's "just a female thing". On the other hand, I have to wonder why I should feel so offended by it. After all, true or false, the premise is really of little consequence either way. I suppose because it seems like in doing so it's being implied that women are somehow naturally less intelligent than men...
But on the other hand, I doubt that this is what was meant to be implied. Am I right?
Maybe there's some truth to it, or maybe there isn't. Actually it seems to me that both "sides" represented here aren't in as much disagreement as one would think, since they both acknowledge that there are differences between men and women. Maybe to differing degrees.
I do question the idea that women tend to go for the less spiritually intellectual stuff (if that is truly the case), as far as that being part of their nature as women goes. Is it a product of nature, or maybe it is a product of nurture? Maybe some of both?
See, it seems to me that assuming that all women go for the less intellectual stuff because that's their nature is guilty of the "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy. There would be other factors to consider.
Now as far as the studies on differences between men and women go, I have not done a lot of research on that, so on that field I can't say much of anything.
Me, honestly, as a women I'd love to attend a Bible study that delves into the details. I've kinda wondered why more of them don't do that; whenever they do I enjoy it. That said, I'm not against things dealing primarily with heart issues and I think they have their place, too.
But I honestly can't help but take some offense to the idea that that's "just a female thing". On the other hand, I have to wonder why I should feel so offended by it. After all, true or false, the premise is really of little consequence either way. I suppose because it seems like in doing so it's being implied that women are somehow naturally less intelligent than men...
But on the other hand, I doubt that this is what was meant to be implied. Am I right?
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thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
So you think you're special because you engage in these discussions and apparently don't believe other women do?
You're as wrong -- sorry, but that's how I feel -- as is Zenas and anyone else who won't give credit to women for intellectual depth.
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I loved your whole post.
I think the offense – for me at least – comes in not when people draw attention to differences in men and women, but when people make unfair tenets that these differences point out distinct intellectual inferiorities or deficiencies in women. Even if that's not what they meant to say .... sometimes it comes out that way. From the bookstore to the pulpit to the conversation around the water cooler.
Yes, I am different from a man. My body – but mostly, my brain is different. And I am different in that I my perspective on the value and use of emotions is different. I don’t dismiss any of that. I can’t dismiss it. It’s true.
Having emotions and allowing those emotions to be a part of my life’s perspective is how God made me. He did it for a reason. That part of me is not inferior to analysis. It doesn’t mean I’m not analytical - in fact, it’s part of my analytical process. Emotional – why does the word have such a terrible stigma? Why is it considered a weakness? I’ve always considered my emotions to be of great value to me – God gave me, as a woman, the ability to delve deeply into things, a sensitivity to others and their plights via my emotions, and a desire to come to the aid of others.
I bear the Image of God through my emotions. God possesses many of them – love, jealousy (a righteous one), anger (a righteous one), compassion for the downtrodden, sensitivity to the needs of His people, a deep and strong desire for His people to become more like Him, and more.
Can a woman be negatively governed by her emotions? Yes. And man can be negatively governed by his sex drive, his aggression, other parts of his nature.
I also think you are exactly correct about the nature vs. nurture aspect of this conversation.
WHY aren’t their more deeply theological studies for women to be found? There are some. I’ve been through them. And admittedly, many times some of these women’s studies do target emotional issues – which isn’t at all bad. Women need to know and understand how God designed them and how best to give themselves over to Him for His glory.
I think the answer lies in a comment made on this thread.
It was by HAMel (and brother, I thank you for your post. It meant a lot to me and am not picking on you).
He said, “Men think with their brains and women think with their hearts.”
He didn’t mean anything negative by that at all. In fact he was being supportive of me. And he didn't make that phrase up - it's a phrase we all heard for decades. As I said, he was being very cordial in his post.
But I really and truly, as a 52 year woman who has seen much in this life, I really believe that men AND women have been conditioned to believe this and women are just treated accordingly.
With all due respect to HAMel ….
…I think with my brain. My brain has some differences to it. I have more white matter and a man has more gray matter. A man thinks with neurons that are active in the gray matter and my thinking involves more of the connections between the neurons. There a lot of differences to men’s and women’s brains that are incredibly interesting to read about.
But … our abilities to solve problems are the same.
One is not more intellectual than the other.
One doesn’t desire more theology than the other.
It’s been incorrectly assumed for so long that a woman’s emotions not only are a driving force, but are her ONLY driving force that we’ve just gone along with believing that she [a] isn’t interested in the quantitative or the analytical and that logic is an area of weakness for her.
And I know more women who feel this way about our gender than I do men. And I think that aggravates me most of all.
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thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
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Particularly the last half, starting at "I think the answer lies in a comment made on this thread ... " :thumbsup:
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