Mental illness and the Baptist Chuch

[freeatlast]

I do not speak of the mentally deficient or of accident victims. I speak of those who deal with depression, schizophrenia, et al. Do you believe that these are caused by sin and discount the possibility that there are also organic causes for these problems?

On a more personal note, do you stand by your accusation that I've forsaken the Bible for my own religion?

Well we disagree on the idea of mental illness as I see it all coming from sin. In other word mental illness does not cause sin, sin causes what some term as mental illness. As to the question I asked in the context it was stated and what was meant by it yes I stand on it although I don't remember what the issue or substance was about.

 

[freeatlast]

In reference to demons Jesus clearly spoke when He said, "But this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting." (Matthew 17:21 NAS77)

What do you call the manifestation of voices, auditory and visual hallucinations when that kind goes out with olanzapine, Seroquel, Risperdal or other psychotropic medications?

I watched a young man: 150+ IQ, born-again, blood-bought, well disciplined disciple of Jesus Christ melt into a catatonic state in a matter of days after completing his first college semester (with a 4.0). He was a diligent student of the Word, mature in his faith and wise beyond his years. Without warning he began to see things that were not there, hear voices that encouraged self-harm and a myriad of things that defy comprehension. 15 years later his illness has progressed to the point that he is institutionalized for the foreseeable future.

Unconfessed or unrepented sin in his life? After 15 years of prayer, fasting and counsel you would think those things would have been rooted out. I find it so difficult comprehend Christian folk so adverse to science, biological and medical facts concerning mental illness. More disturbing is the assertion that our sin can be so deep that it outreaches the Cross. Do you really think so little of Calvary?

I have stayed up through the night countless times with this young man searching the Word, praying and fasting together. He has prayed in earnest that this thorn in the flesh be removed. The answer to his prayer is the thorn driven deeper and the ravages more profound.

Draw your own conclusions. If you'd like to pray for this young man his name is Joshua. He calls me Dad.

You have no way to know what all that fasting and prayer was about my friend. Here are some people that also fast and prayed and dedicated themselves;
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
One thing for sure the pills have not fixed him. I have prayed for him and I am sure others will also.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

In reference to demons Jesus clearly spoke when He said, "But this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting." (Matthew 17:21 NAS77)

What do you call the manifestation of voices, auditory and visual hallucinations when that kind goes out with olanzapine, Seroquel, Risperdal or other psychotropic medications?

I watched a young man: 150+ IQ, born-again, blood-bought, well disciplined disciple of Jesus Christ melt into a catatonic state in a matter of days after completing his first college semester (with a 4.0). He was a diligent student of the Word, mature in his faith and wise beyond his years. Without warning he began to see things that were not there, hear voices that encouraged self-harm and a myriad of things that defy comprehension. 15 years later his illness has progressed to the point that he is institutionalized for the foreseeable future.

Unconfessed or unrepented sin in his life? After 15 years of prayer, fasting and counsel you would think those things would have been rooted out. I find it so difficult comprehend Christian folk so adverse to science, biological and medical facts concerning mental illness. More disturbing is the assertion that our sin can be so deep that it outreaches the Cross. Do you really think so little of Calvary?

I have stayed up through the night countless times with this young man searching the Word, praying and fasting together. He has prayed in earnest that this thorn in the flesh be removed. The answer to his prayer is the thorn driven deeper and the ravages more profound.

Draw your own conclusions. If you'd like to pray for this young man his name is Joshua. He calls me Dad.

Are they truly gone out? or is the person's mind altered to where they are just not hearing them anymore?

The brain's functioning can be funny. If I do not get enough sleep, I get a constant high-pitched buzzing in my head. Once I rest, they buzzing is gone. I am sure if I took sleeping pills, they would squelch the buzzing as well. But as soon as I deprive myself of proper sleep, the buzzing begins again.

It is the same with people hearing voices telling them to cut themselves. Pills do not get rid of those voices, they only squelch them for a time. Take away the pills and the voices are speaking once again. The problem is not done away by medicating the person, it is only prolonged. That presence which the voices come from is still there in the dark recesses of the mind waiting to surface again.

Pumping a person full of psychotropic drugs does not remedy the problem, it keeps the problem sedated, so to speak.

 

[nodak]

Bipolar disorder is not the same as getting down once in a while.

Truly, those that denigrate the mentally ill probably would never walk up to a diabetic and tell them to just go to God, think positive thoughts, eat right, and get on with life without insulin.

Yet they expect those with brain disease to just get over it.

Beats me.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Fred, can you please tell me what qualifies you to make these statements....are you a MD, Psychiatrist or any medical professional with both extensive study & practice in the field of mental disorders?

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Bipolar disorder is not the same as getting down once in a while.

Truly, those that denigrate the mentally ill probably would never walk up to a diabetic and tell them to just go to God, think positive thoughts, eat right, and get on with life without insulin.

Yet they expect those with brain disease to just get over it.

Beats me.

Diabetes is a physical illness that can be medically proven. Mental illness is a fabricated fable that no medical profession has been able to prove as being factual.

 

[padredurand]

Pumping a person full of psychotropic drugs does not remedy the problem, it keeps the problem sedated, so to speak.

Not all psychotropics are sedatives. Maybe you need to educate yourself on the topic. I recommend this site NAMI.

 

[agedman]

There are two specific (if I recall correctly) of one going insane and one with some form of epilepsy.

I would like for FAL and Fred to point out what "sin" was involved, and how those two instances support their view.

Daniel 7

Mathew 17

So you don't get to lost, in both these accounts the Scriptures indicate the condition was caused by direct decree from God!

 

[Arbo]

Well we disagree on the idea of mental illness as I see it all coming from sin. In other word mental illness does not cause sin, sin causes what some term as mental illness. As to the question I asked in the context it was stated and what was meant by it yes I stand on it although I don't remember what the issue or substance was about.

Answered as expected, on both counts.

Now let me ask you what evidence you have, Biblically, that you are right on both of these. On your contention that mental illness' root cause is the sufferer's sin; and that because I disagree with you about this I must have forsaken the Bible for my own religion, as you say. Refer to posts 38, 40, and 42 to jog your memory regarding the latter.

Or you can just to admit that you were hasty to judge.

 

[freeatlast]

There are two specific (if I recall correctly) of one going insane and one with some form of epilepsy.

I would like for FAL and Fred to point out what "sin" was involved, and how those two instances support their view.

Daniel 7

Mathew 17

So you don't get to lost, in both these accounts the Scriptures indicate the condition was caused by direct decree from God!

Fred might be able to answer you but I am not sure of your question. The person in Mat 17 was demon possessed.
Dan 7 is a prophesy. So I am not understanding the question.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Matthew 17:18 reveals that the epilepsy was caused by a demon that had to be cast out... not mental illness contrary to what many would claim this day and age.

Matthew 17:18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

You must have missed that, eh?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Matthew 17:18 reveals that the epilepsy was caused by a demon that had to be cast out... not mental illness contrary to what many would claim this day and age.

Matthew 17:18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

You must have missed that, eh?

Are you a pastor Fred?

 

[Steadfast Fred]

No, I am not a pastor. But I do preach when called upon.

 

[freeatlast]

Answered as expected, on both counts.

Now let me ask you what evidence you have, Biblically, that you are right on both of these. On your contention that mental illness' root cause is the sufferer's sin; and that because I disagree with you about this I must have forsaken the Bible for my own religion, as you say. Refer to posts 38, 40, and 42 to jog your memory regarding the latter.

Or you can just to admit that you were hasty to judge.

Your statement about not being able to go periods of time with no sin is clearly wrong according to scripture. Please show any scripture that puts a time limit on how long someone can go.

You asked for biblical support for my belief on what is being called mental illness. Well I am not going to list every instance in the bible. You can do that research, but King Saul is a prime example. His sin drove him mentally ill in today's standards. Also Nebakanezer's sin brought him to eating grass. If you look into scripture in every single event where anyone is considered crazy, mentally ill or what ever you would call it is is because of sin first. Not they get ill and then start sinning.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

You asked for biblical support for my belief on what is being called mental illness. Well I am not going to list every instance in the bible. You can do that research, but King Saul is a prime example. His sin drove him mentally ill in today's standards. Also Nebakanezer's sin brought him to eating grass. If you look into scripture in every single event where anyone is considered crazy, mentally ill or what ever you would call it is is because of sin first. Not they get ill and then start sinning.

So true. Yet in today's society, so many want to put the cart before the horse.

 

[Arbo]

Your statement about not being able to go periods of time with no sin is clearly wrong according to scripture. Please show any scripture that puts a time limit on how long someone can go.

You asked for biblical support for my belief on what is being called mental illness. Well I am not going to list every instance in the bible. You can do that research, but King Saul is a prime example. His sin drove him mentally ill in today's standards. Also Nebakanezer's sin brought him to eating grass. If you look into scripture in every single event where anyone is considered crazy, mentally ill or what ever you would call it is is because of sin first. Not they get ill and then start sinning.

The examples of Saul and Nebuchadnezzar do not a principle make.

As to the former issue, that's a topic that would derail the thread; besides you will not listen to someone whom you consider an heretic.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

The claim that voices in the head that cause one to cut ones self is caused by mental illness is ludicrous. Especially since the Word of God tells us where these voices originate from...

Matthew 15:19-20 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Thoughts of self mutilation, suicide, etc., originate in the heart of man, not in the mind. It is not a result of mental illness, but rather of an evil heart.

Jeremiah 17:9-10 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

 

[preacher4truth]

The claim that voices in the head that cause one to cut ones self is caused by mental illness is ludicrous. Especially since the Word of God tells us where these voices originate from...

Matthew 15:19-20 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Thoughts of self mutilation, suicide, etc., originate in the heart of man, not in the mind. It is not a result of mental illness, but rather of an evil heart.

Jeremiah 17:9-10 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Sure. It says it comes from our evil hearts, not demons.

One of the Prof's at Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va., Dr. Wilmington, once told me..

We can never separate love and truth:

• Truth without love leads to legalism.

• Love without truth leads to liberalism.

How true that is.

Oh, btw Dr. Willmington spelled his name with two 'L's.

 

[Iconoclast]

The claim that voices in the head that cause one to cut ones self is caused by mental illness is ludicrous. Especially since the Word of God tells us where these voices originate from...

Matthew 15:19-20 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Thoughts of self mutilation, suicide, etc., originate in the heart of man, not in the mind. It is not a result of mental illness, but rather of an evil heart.

Jeremiah 17:9-10 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

The fact that all men apart from Christ and bound in sin and are insane is one thing.....but to say that there is no legitimate mental illness is unscriptural.

Living in a fallen world there are a full spectrum of disorders.
Are there abuses...and all kinds of made -up syndromes to perpetuate the funding for mental health...yes...that kind of abuse is there.

If you have no experience with mental disorders you have been fortunate....be careful what you desire.....I do not think Nebuchadnezzar was enjoying good mental health when eating grass....

15Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth:

16Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

11And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

 

[padredurand]

The claim that voices in the head that cause one to cut ones self is caused by mental illness is ludicrous. Especially since the Word of God tells us where these voices originate from...

Matthew 15:19-20 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Thoughts of self mutilation, suicide, etc., originate in the heart of man, not in the mind. It is not a result of mental illness, but rather of an evil heart.

Jeremiah 17:9-10 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

But not out of the heart of a regenerated man.

Hebrews 10:19-22 NAS77
19 Since therefore, brethren, we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,
21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.


It is apparent you do not understand even the elementary principles of brain function. Let me give you a simple example. Do you know anyone with Parkinson's disease? It's root cause is a deficiency in the neurotransmitter dopamine. Information passing between receptors is lost. Would you tell a Parkinson's patient that they are not ill just sinful?

Schizophrenia is a related illness. It's cause? Too much dopamine. Receptors are flooded with information. Some stick completing a thought while other bits of information travel to unintended portions of the brain. That's why schizophrenics see or hear things that are not there. It's obvious you would not hesitate to tell the schizophrenic that they have a sin issue not a medical one.

This is an over simplified description of the related illnesses. Do a little research. There is no excuse for ignorance.

I will give thanks to Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Thy works, And my soul knows it very well.
Psalms 139:14 NAS77