Meow Mix

[Aaron]

Johnny: Uncle Charlie, why does the cat meow?

Wrong question.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=76380&page=15

And yet, that's the question you are answering with your non sequitur. :laugh:

Why does a sow wallow in the mire?

Charlie: because it's not a dove.

Why does a dog return to its vomit?

Charlie: because it's not a sheep.

Why does the sinner reject Christ?

Charlie: because he isn't elect.

Non sequitur, and wrong. A sow wallows in the mire, because it's a sow, and that's its nature. A dog returns to its vomit, because it's a dog, and that's its nature. A sinner rejects Christ, because he's a sinner, and that's his nature.

 

[Skandelon]

The problem with all these analogies is the same as your first error. You are comparing 'sinners' to 'dogs, cats, sows, doves, sheep,' but you seem to forget we are all born 'sinners.' Thus, when one asks, "Why does one sinner rejects Christ while another accepts him?" (in the Calvinistic system), the obvious answer is 'because one was chosen and the other wasn't.' To answer this question by saying, "He is a sinner," doesn't tell us the difference because BOTH ARE SINNERS. So in your analogy the better question would be, "Why does this dog meow and that dog bark?"

I honestly have no idea why would disagree with this point. Sometimes I think you just like being disagreeable.

 

[Skandelon]

A sow wallows in the mire, because it's a sow, and that's its nature.

And what about that sow over there whose nature has been irresistibly changed to where he no longer wants to wallow? Why is that sow accepting it while this sow rejects?

ONE SOW WAS CHOSEN AND THE OTHER WASN'T.

A sinner rejects Christ, because he's a sinner, and that's his nature.

And since we are all sinners should we conclude that all reject Christ? Obviously not. So, what is the difference? Why do some sinners change and others don't (in your system)?

ELECTION!!!!

Again, why do you take issue with this?

 

[DaChaser1]

And what about that sow over there whose nature has been irresistibly changed to where he no longer wants to wallow? Why is that sow accepting it while this sow rejects?

ONE SOW WAS CHOSEN AND THE OTHER WASN'T.


And since we are all sinners should we conclude that all reject Christ? Obviously not. So, what is the difference? Why do some sinners change and others don't (in your system)?

ELECTION!!!!

Again, why do you take issue with this?

Its a biblical doctrine and concept, why do you?

 

[Aaron]

Again, why do you take issue with this?

You don't understand election or Calvinism, and I delight in exposing your ignorance. :type:

Election is not the cause of anything. It is God's purpose in Redemption. The reason my flashlight won't work is because it has no batteries. Not because I elected put batteries in another flashlight.

Even if there were only cats and dogs, the reason a cat meows is not because it is not a dog. It is because it's a cat.

 

[preacher4truth]

The last two posts? Spot on. Well, make that three. :thumbs:

 

[Skandelon]

You don't understand election or Calvinism, and I delight in exposing your ignorance. :type:

This has nothing to do with your obvious errors above... You are diverting with ad hominem attacks...

Election is not the cause of anything. It is God's purpose in Redemption. The reason my flashlight won't work is because it has no batteries. Not because I elected put batteries in another flashlight.

Again, you are diverting from the obvious truth. If there are two un-working flashlights and all of the sudden one starts working, the obvious question would be: Why is one flashlight working and the other is not? The obvious answer is because YOU CHOSE to put batteries in one and not the other. And if you back up in the analogy just a bit and ask why neither flashlight had any batteries to start I suppose you'd have to say, "Well, there was a representative flashlight that disobeyed and as punishment I removed every battery from every flashlight." So, once again you avoid nothing with this diversion.

It's called A DISTINCTION, Aaron. What is different about the two objects/peoples being compared? They are both born as dogs or battery-less flashlights (or whatever analogy you want to pick next to divert from the obvious), and they were both born in the same condition for the same reason. The fact is that some of objects were chosen (given batteries) while the rest were not. THAT is the difference and thus the ultimate CAUSE.

You know it, you just don't like the culpability issues so you are trying to divert using semantics.

 

[kyredneck]

...The reason my flashlight won't work is because it has no batteries. Not because I elected put batteries in another flashlight.
.....

Heheh, :thumbsup:

 

[DaChaser1]

This has nothing to do with your obvious errors above... You are diverting with ad hominem attacks...

Again, you are diverting from the obvious truth. If there are two un-working flashlights and all of the sudden one starts working, the obvious question would be: Why is one flashlight working and the other is not? The obvious answer is because YOU CHOSE to put batteries in one and not the other. And if you back up in the analogy just a bit and ask why neither flashlight had any batteries to start I suppose you'd have to say, "Well, there was a representative flashlight that disobeyed and as punishment I removed every battery from every flashlight." So, once again you avoid nothing with this diversion.

It's called A DISTINCTION, Aaron. What is different about the two objects/peoples being compared? They are both born as dogs or battery-less flashlights (or whatever analogy you want to pick next to divert from the obvious), and they were both born in the same condition for the same reason. The fact is that some of objects were chosen (given batteries) while the rest were not. THAT is the difference and thus the ultimate CAUSE.

You know it, you just don't like the culpability issues so you are trying to divert using semantics.

Think it better to use the One paul used, in that God is the master potter, and ALl are His clay to mold and use as He so chooses!

IF we have a problem with Election being based upon the Will of God alone, that salvation is totally His work, take it up with Him, I think that He can speak for Himself and "handle it!"

 

[preacher4truth]

Think it better to use the One paul used, in that God is the master potter, and ALl are His clay to mold and use as He so chooses!

IF we have a problem with Election being based upon the Will of God alone, that salvation is totally His work, take it up with Him, I think that He can speak for Himself and "handle it!"

Yes and amen.

I can only give God all the glory for the path He has led me down to teach me these truths. He's in charge in all things, and I trust Him.

- Peace

 

[quantumfaith]

Think it better to use the One paul used, in that God is the master potter, and ALl are His clay to mold and use as He so chooses!

IF we have a problem with Election being based upon the Will of God alone, that salvation is totally His work, take it up with Him, I think that He can speak for Himself and "handle it!"

Is not this what all the haggle is about, our best attempts at understanding this "will" of God in all things. Eventually every single one of must appeal to mystery, decrees, paradoxes, compatibilism etc, because not a one us possesses the complete and utter truth and understanding of all things theological. NOT ONE of us.

 

[Don]

Election is not the cause of anything. It is God's purpose in Redemption. The reason my flashlight won't work is because it has no batteries. Not because I elected put batteries in another flashlight.

Instead of cheerleading, your compadres should be helping to explain your analogy.

Your flashlight won't work because it has no batteries; okay, so you put some batteries in it. What about your other flashlight? Do you put batteries in it? If not, why not? Why the first flashlight and not the second one? Wait; you chose to put batteries in a third flashlight, but the second one still has no batteries; why the first and third, but not the second?

 

[Don]

Is not this what all the haggle is about, our best attempts at understanding this "will" of God in all things. Eventually every single one of must appeal to mystery, decrees, paradoxes, compatibilism etc, because not a one us possesses the complete and utter truth and understanding of all things theological. NOT ONE of us.

Outstanding. And thus why I don't usually participate in these "we hate each other" calvin/arminian "debates."

 

[Skandelon]

Instead of cheerleading, your compadres should be helping to explain your analogy.

Your flashlight won't work because it has no batteries; okay, so you put some batteries in it. What about your other flashlight? Do you put batteries in it? If not, why not? Why the first flashlight and not the second one? Wait; you chose to put batteries in a third flashlight, but the second one still has no batteries; why the first and third, but not the second?

:thumbsup:

Right. And to suggest the second flashlight simply doesn't light up because it doesn't have batteries while ignoring the reason the flashlights don't have batteries to begin with and the choice of the flashlight owner to place batteries in some and not others is a bit absurd.

 

[MB]

I just wonder can a Calvinist prove with scripture they are in fact elect?
MB

 

[agedman]

:thumbsup:

Right. And to suggest the second flashlight simply doesn't light up because it doesn't have batteries while ignoring the reason the flashlights don't have batteries to begin with and the choice of the flashlight owner to place batteries in some and not others is a bit absurd.

The question should be asked, "Do the flashlights have the right to boast or complain if they have the ability to light or not?"

Back in the day, there was a story about a town hobo who would hang large rocks in the fruit tree so the fruit would become jealous and grow larger than the rocks. He also attracted the rain clouds from across the valley by using black smoke.

We all can understand that none of the work by the hobo of the story actually was effective.

We can see that the efforts of the hobo were of no value. The tree grows fruit with no care about embarrassment by larger rocks, and the clouds are not attracted by the desire to fellowship with black smoke.

Nor do flashlights determine which gets the burden of shining light.

Each of those are to be the unquestioned responsibility of the authority.

Perhaps it is, because it is, and that is the way it is.

 

[agedman]

I just wonder can a Calvinist prove with scripture they are in fact elect?
MB

Can that question be turned and asked if a non-cal can prove with Scripture that they are in fact elect?

 

[Skandelon]

The question should be asked, "Do the flashlights have the right to boast or complain if they have the ability to light or not?"

Or do they have an excuse for not lighting when called and equipped to do so?

 

[Skandelon]

Can that question be turned and asked if a non-cal can prove with Scripture that they are in fact elect?

Yes.

"salvation has come to the Gentiles" -Rm 11:11

I'm a gentile.

"For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." - Rm 11:32

I'm a part of "all"

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." - Mk. 15:16

I'm a creature.

"God so loved the world..."

I'm in the world.

"...whosoever believes in him shall not perish..."

I'm a whosoever that believes

"everyone who repents and believes will be saved..."

I have repented and believed.

 

[Don]

The question should be asked, "Do the flashlights have the right to boast or complain if they have the ability to light or not?"

Back in the day, there was a story about a town hobo who would hang large rocks in the fruit tree so the fruit would become jealous and grow larger than the rocks. He also attracted the rain clouds from across the valley by using black smoke.

We all can understand that none of the work by the hobo of the story actually was effective.

We can see that the efforts of the hobo were of no value. The tree grows fruit with no care about embarrassment by larger rocks, and the clouds are not attracted by the desire to fellowship with black smoke.

Nor do flashlights determine which gets the burden of shining light.

Each of those are to be the unquestioned responsibility of the authority.

Perhaps it is, because it is, and that is the way it is.

Which is exactly what QuantumFaith wrote at the top of page 2.