Meow Mix

[Don]

Previously:

I just wonder can a Calvinist prove with scripture they are in fact elect?
MB

To which I responded, see Romans 9.

I've read Romans 9 so how is Pauls concern for his brother Jews have anything to do with gentiles and there election. Are you saying that you are a descendent from Jacob ?
MB

For your original question (calvinists proving they are elect), see Romans 9:11. There are many other verses that talk about election, but this seems to be the one that's hardest for non-calvinists to discuss.

 

[Skandelon]

Previously:
To which I responded, see Romans 9.

For your original question (calvinists proving they are elect), see Romans 9:11. There are many other verses that talk about election, but this seems to be the one that's hardest for non-calvinists to discuss.

Here is the passage:
10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

As quoted from another thread...."Paul is telling ethnic Israel something very close to what Reformed interpreters see. He is telling them that God has the right to choose whomever he wills to be among his covenant people. But he is not telling them this because God has chosen not to elect most of them. He’s telling them this because the paradigm for inclusion in the covenant people has shifted, from national Israel following the Law to anyone who comes to faith in Christ. Israel feels betrayed by this paradigm shift, so Paul explains that God has no obligation to the physical descendants of Abraham; rather, Paul demonstrates from the Old Testament that his relationship to Israel has always depended upon repentance."

 

[MB]

It is a picture of election. The sheep that are His knew His voice and when He came and called for them they followed.

Scripture tells us that not everyone can hear and know His voice.

Which is why this does not support election. You are not a sheep while being destined for destruction.
These Christ is speaking about are not His sheep because they did not believe. They did not enter in by the door "Jesus Christ".
Christ said;
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. Christ is the door way in to His fold so all those sheep were in fact saved. There is no picture of election there in that passage at all. It's not even mentioned.
MB

 

[MB]

Previously:
To which I responded, see Romans 9.

For your original question (calvinists proving they are elect), see Romans 9:11. There are many other verses that talk about election, but this seems to be the one that's hardest for non-calvinists to discuss.

Well I'm not a Calvinist nor a non calvinist I was simply saved by the blood of the Lamb.
Romans 9:11 isn't hard to discuss at all it simply isn't about the election of Gentiles but of a whole race of Jews God wanted for His people. So are you of Jewish descent? If not this is not proof of your election. This is proof of the election of Jews only.
MB

 

[Don]

Well I'm not a Calvinist nor a non calvinist I was simply saved by the blood of the Lamb.
Romans 9:11 isn't hard to discuss at all it simply isn't about the election of Gentiles but of a whole race of Jews God wanted for His people. So are you of Jewish descent? If not this is not proof of your election. This is proof of the election of Jews only.
MB

Well...by the very definition, if you're not a calvinist, you're a non-calvinist.

But that's neither here nor there. Romans 9 is considered part of a body of evidence that God has pre-ordained certain people to salvation.

 

[DaChaser1]

Previously:
To which I responded, see Romans 9.

For your original question (calvinists proving they are elect), see Romans 9:11. There are many other verses that talk about election, but this seems to be the one that's hardest for non-calvinists to discuss.

Some bring in "Judicial hardening" of the Jewish peoples at time of Jesus, and say that we cannot use either Gospel of John/nor Romans die to "special/unique" situation God with dealing with isreal of that time!

 

[MB]

Well...by the very definition, if you're not a calvinist, you're a non-calvinist.

But that's neither here nor there. Romans 9 is considered part of a body of evidence that God has pre-ordained certain people to salvation.

Hi Don;
I've come to the conclusion that Calvinism attemps to do there proof texting with many scriptures that are about the Jews and not the Gentiles. It seems to me this alone should open there eyes to the errors of Calvinism.
MB

 

[DaChaser1]

Hi Don;
I've come to the conclusion that Calvinism attemps to do there proof texting with many scriptures that are about the Jews and not the Gentiles. It seems to me this alone should open there eyes to the errors of Calvinism.
MB

same doctrines apply to either group, as ALL have sinned and fallen short of glory of God and need to be saved!

 

[AresMan]

And what about that sow over there whose nature has been irresistibly changed to where he no longer wants to wallow? Why is that sow accepting it while this sow rejects?

ONE SOW WAS CHOSEN AND THE OTHER WASN'T.


And since we are all sinners should we conclude that all reject Christ? Obviously not. So, what is the difference? Why do some sinners change and others don't (in your system)?

ELECTION!!!!

Again, why do you take issue with this?

Because the mystery of salvific choice belongs with God, not man. If it is autonomously in man's court, please explain it. Thanks.

 

[AresMan]

Think it better to use the One paul used, in that God is the master potter, and ALl are His clay to mold and use as He so chooses!

IF we have a problem with Election being based upon the Will of God alone, that salvation is totally His work, take it up with Him, I think that He can speak for Himself and "handle it!"

There are no moral apologies that a human being has to make for God's choice. He is GOD, ok? He is the Creator. He has the right to do with His creation as He pleases. To even challenge this as a creature is ridiculous. What universal moral standard can hold Yahweh--the Self-Sufficient One--accountable?
It seems that the Apostle Paul answers this very objection:

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

[DaChaser1]

There are no moral apologies that a human being has to make for God's choice. He is GOD, ok? He is the Creator. He has the right to do with His creation as He pleases. To even challenge this as a creature is ridiculous. What universal moral standard can hold Yahweh--the Self-Sufficient One--accountable?
It seems that the Apostle Paul answers this very objection:

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Some hear though see'judicial hardening" in Gospels and Romans, so they cite 'special purpose' and thus claim cannot base theology on those statements!

 

[MB]

same doctrines apply to either group, as ALL have sinned and fallen short of glory of God and need to be saved!

I don't believe election is a doctrine. Simply you are either elect or you're not. Definitly not if you're a Gentile.
MB