Messianic Kingdom

[Amy.G]

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=52816&page=22

See post #218

Yes, it's one kingdom. But it's not "earthly". It's spiritual and eternal.

The kingdom is within us. Just because we are on the earth in physical bodies does not mean that Christ's kingdom is "of this world". The phrase "of this world" means "according to the worldly system", IMO.

 

[Ed Edwards]

As a dispensation believer, I make only this claim:
(if you want to argue against some other dispensation theory, you probably won't get any body else to respond on the BB)
----------------

Dispensation in the NT, KJV1769 family of editions (bold by Ed):

1 Corinthians 9:17 (KJV1769):
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:
but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel
is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 (KJV1769):
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both
which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 (KJV1769):
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 (KJV1769):
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation
of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

The Holy Spirit hasn't shown me a lot more than is here. I do know the Greek word being translated here as 'dispensation' is the Greek word from which we get 'economy'.

I do know (IN SUMMARY OF THE BIBLE off the top of my head) that this is what the conomy of God is like:

Bible Prophetic times:
'hour' = the appropriate time
'day' = the appropriate time
or '1 day' = 1,000 years
'½-week' = 3½-years
'1 day' = 'week' = 7 years
'month' = the appropriate time
year = the appropriate time

Other 'economy of God facts':

the blind see
the dead live
the deaf hear
the lame leap like deer
the first is last
the last is first
Jesus Saves (totally!)
God Rules!!

Frequently the Bible discusses what is to be is discussed in either present tense (is done) or past tense (done already done).

So a study of Greek tenses is generally frustrating. Us human type people can only do one day at a time. God can do everyday at a time - I think God may have invented all the days at the same time?

 

[OldRegular]

OldRegular, post #12):
// It is you who choose to look with blind eyes. Perhaps you cannot handle the truth. In my OP I ask a simple question as follows:

Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews?//

Ed's short history of the first 24-hours of this Topic: Messianic Kingdom (16 posts). (number of actual on-topic posts are denoted as bold)

#1 - OldRegular asks simple question.
#2 - Dr. Bob blows OldRegular's simple question out of the water
#3 - Ed Edwards blows OldRegular's simple question out of the water with scripture (only)
#4 - non-Revmitchell disses Ed's Bible (how could a 1599 Bible Edition be a MV?)
#5 - Allan blows OldRegular's simple question out of the water
#6 - Ed appeals to non-Revmitchell's sense of service to God (i.e. tests the spirit)
#7 - non-Revmitchell flunks spirit test
#8 - OldRegular gripes
#9 - OldRegular gripes with similies
#10 - OldRegular gripes
#11 - Allan blows OldRegular's simple question out of the water again - including scripture
#12 - OldRegular gripes
#13 - Sister Amy.G supports OldRegular's point
#14 - OldRegular gripes
#15 - Sister Amy.G points out she was supporting OldRegular's point
#16 - OldRegular gripes more

Ed notes it usually takes 36 hours for a BB thread to have a well reasoned definitive post in it; this Topic is only 24-hours old.

It is just me or isn't this about the 5th Topic, OldRegular started where he doesn't read the posts nor argue their points but JUST GRIPES?

Ed's post above is childish and nonsensical; typical of him. He did get one thing correct in his list [Ed likes lists if you haven't noticed.]. He stated: 1. OldRegular asks simple question. However he cannot and no one else has answered that simple question with Scripture but with a lot of non pertinent blather.

I ask the same question. Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews?

Perhaps I can state the question slightly different and get a response.

Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered TO ESTABLISH an earthly Messianic Kingdom for the Jews?

An answer to this question is important since dispensational doctrine is premised on the concept that such an offer was made and refused by the Jews. Given no adequate response I must assume what I have believed all along: Dispensational error is built on a house of Darby/Scofield cards, not Scripture.

 

[OldRegular]

It is just me or isn't this about the 5th Topic, OldRegular started where he doesn't read the posts nor argue their points but JUST GRIPES?

Ed

I have been off this forum for about two years and back on a couple of weeks. This is the only Topic I have posted on Theology. I have put a couple on Politics.

In that two year time period I can see that you haven't changed; you present long unintelligible posts, some in Elizabethan English, that do nothing but throw up a cloud of dust!

 

[Ed Edwards]

O.P. type discussion topic: // Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered TO ESTABLISH an earthly Messianic Kingdom for the Jews? //

No. For you will not receive it -- just as bad as cannot understand it.

I can say nothing else lest I offend an Elder. I see a very long thread about A-Mill got shutdown - that might have confused me about there being multiple threads. But I tire rapidly now that I'm an Elder also. I didn't have a hard time at all finding my unchallenged posts about this matter - which posts I'd like to discuss (sometimes I say wrong things just to see if somebody

I'll start my own topic proving: The Lord has Three Kingdoms. I am a saved-by-Jesus Person so I'm in two of those Kingdoms.

I'll just talk to people who want to talk on the subject at hand. I doubt there are very many here who will want to defend the 'dispy theory' that you propose, in fact, hardly anybody does, anywhere. Darby died about 120 years ago.

 

[OldRegular]

O.P. type discussion topic: // Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered TO ESTABLISH an earthly Messianic Kingdom for the Jews? //

No. For you will not receive it --

I will not receive it because the Scripture doesn't exist and the inability of anyone to answer my question proves it.:laugh:

I doubt there are very many here who will want to defend the 'dispy theory' that you propose, in fact, hardly anybody does, anywhere. Darby died about 120 years ago.

Dispensational doctrine is indefensible from Scripture.:laugh:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Check out this new Discussion (you know 'discussion' where there is some talk back and forth among folk):

Three Kingdom's of God (Eschatology)

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1318788#post1318788

 

[OldRegular]

One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, and only One Kingdom, the Kingdom of God!

 

[Allan]

It is you who choose to look with blind eyes. Perhaps you cannot handle the truth. In my OP I ask a simple question as follows:

Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews?

No one has answered that question. Not one verse of Scripture has been identified where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews.

Again, you are 'blind' to what has already been given. Scripture HAVE been given. Every prophesy of the OT whereby the Kingdom of Israel will be restored speaks of this (EVERY ONE). Not the church which some have misunderstood but to the Messianic Kingdom which Christ will rule ON Earth.

Yet dispensationalists argue that He did make such an offer, that the Jews rejected the offer, and He established the Church as an "intercalculation" or as a parenthesis form of the Kingdom. Please respond with Scripture rather than snide remarks.

Then you have a very limited understanding of Dispensationalism and I would suggest to you that you study 'their' works, and not reading from others what they are saying. The Church was not His 'back-up' plan but was part of the whole plan that will bring into being the Earthly Messianic Kingdom of Israel - His Jewish people

The Jews ask Jesus Christ if "the time is now" prior to His ascension. He had died and raised from the dead for the Church so the Scripture you are quoting is not relevant since according to dispensationalists the Jews had already rejected the offer which no one can find. It is also worth noting

The Jews were looking correctly for His Kingdom but incorrectly in that they were looking for a kingdom after their own desires and plans not God's, and therefore not Christs. Thus when Christ was teaching to Disciples/Apostles about the Kingdom it was correct for them to ALSO ask when it shall be. You have to keep context and the context is that Jesus was teaching them about the Kingdom and thus their question was spawned from His teachings. Lord will you restore now again the Kingdom to Isreal?

Jesus did not tell them (as He consistantly did) of any error they viewed or held or something they did not understand, but ackowledged their question in the positive that 'that time' was for God to know since the power to bring it about will be done according to His timing. This was the Disciples asking not the Jews. These were those Jesus was revealing the truth to, not the Jews who did not believe. Keep the context.

1]the Apostle Paul's remarks regarding Jesus Christ's death for the Church
2]the Apostle Paul's remarks to the Jews regarding their blindness
3]the Scripture declaration that Paul was preaching the Kingdom of God.

Acts20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

And?? This is part of dispensational teaching (are you sure you aren't a dispy?)

Acts 28:25-31
25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
29. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
30. And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31. Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

And this proves what point or explains away what portion of Dispy? When you read Romans 9-11 it makes abundantly clear that God has 'set them aside' for a time but He is not done with Israel. Paul reminds us that all Israel 'will be' saved, after the time of the Gentiles is completed. If you will keep context and stop skipping all over the place you will see it is refering specifically to the Nation as a whole (and not every single individual). Yes, God even in the OT spoke of God extending toward the Gentiles as a people and that they no longer 'had to become' Jewish religiously in order to be His. BUT He also states that He will bring His people (the Jews) back into a relationship with Him and restore the Kingdom with a King who will sit on "Davids' Throne and this Kingdom will be one that bring peace to the entire world.

Like I stated before, the vast majority of the early church for the 500 years believed not only in the physical return of Christ for His people but also in a physical earthly Kingdom to be set up. (pre-mil) And I proved it to you using your own source regarding the pre-mil position earlier. It did not become a prevelant view until St. Augustine and most specifically shortly there-after. So that makes those whom the apostles taught, those whom they taught and so forth, that they held/believed in His return and restortation of the Kingdom of/to Israel with Christ as it's eteranl King. This was the main, predonimant, taught view of the Church for the first 500 years (approximately). That is not including proper exegesis and proper herminutics which insist these two basic things are scripturally taught beyond question.

 

[dragonfly]

One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, and only One Kingdom, the Kingdom of God!

I don't see the conflict. I believe both are true. I believe there is one Kingdom of God present throughout the various dispensations in which God deals with man.

 

[OldRegular]

I don't see the conflict. I believe both are true. I believe there is one Kingdom of God present throughout the various dispensations in which God deals with man.

God deals with man through Covenants, not dispensations!

 

[OldRegular]

I don't see the conflict. I believe both are true. I believe there is one Kingdom of God present throughout the various dispensations in which God deals with man.

God deals with man through Covenants, not dispensations!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

God deals with man through Covenants, not dispensations!

amen brother.

However, how does that affect "beleivers baptism?"

 

[OldRegular]

Allan

Your response above is a lot of semantic nonsense as all the dispensational responses to my question have been.

Jesus Christ in Matthew 13:10-16 spoke to His disciples concerning the blindness of the Jews as ptophesied in Isaiah.

10. And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11. He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13.Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15. For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

The Apostle Paul repeats this same message to the Jews in Rome [Acts 28:24-27].

24. And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Dispensationalism is based on the false teaching of John Darby, apparently influenced by a new revelation given to Margaret MacDonald, and propagated by the Scofield Bible. Sadly, many Southern Baptists have departed from the Doctrine they once held and have embraced this error. If the Apostle Paul were here today he would say to the dispensationalists exactly what he told the Jews in Rome: Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

I repeat what I have said frequently:

Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews?

No one has answered that question. Not one verse of Scripture has been identified where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews.

In fact other than Acts 1:6 about the only Scripture posted on this topic [other than the meanderings of Ed] have been posted by me.:laugh:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Allan

Your response above is a lot of semantic nonsense as all the dispensational responses to my question have been.

Jesus Christ in Matthew 13:10-16 spoke to His disciples concerning the blindness of the Jews as ptophesied in Isaiah.

10. And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11. He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13.Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15. For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

The Apostle Paul repeats this same message to the Jews in Rome [Acts 28:24-27].

24. And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Dispensationalism is based on the false teaching of John Darby, apparently influenced by a new revelation given to Margaret MacDonald, and propagated by the Scofield Bible. Sadly, many Southern Baptists have departed from the Doctrine they once held and have embraced this error. If the Apostle Paul were here today he would say to the dispensationalists exactly what he told the Jews in Rome: Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

I repeat what I have said frequently:

Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews?

No one has answered that question. Not one verse of Scripture has been identified where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews.

In fact other than Acts 1:6 about the only Scripture posted on this topic [other than the meanderings of Ed] have been posted by me.:laugh:

Wasn't the revelation to Margeret a private revelation?

Christianity is the promise of the Old testiment not a future Jewish nation.

 

[swaimj]

Old Regular said:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Perhaps someone can refute the above Scripture.

This scripture does not support the argument that you are making. To say that Christ's kingdom is not of this world does not refer to the location of the kingdom, but to its source. Consider this: Jesus, during his ministry, was not "OF this world", but he was certainly IN the world during his earthly ministry. So His source was heaven, but his location was earth. His kingdom is the same, sourced in heaven but located in earth.

The Acts 1 passage and Romans 11 passage that have been cited are more than sufficient to show that there is a future earthly kingdom.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Old Regular said:
This scripture does not support the argument that you are making. To say that Christ's kingdom is not of this world does not refer to the location of the kingdom, but to its source. Consider this: Jesus, during his ministry, was not "OF this world", but he was certainly IN the world during his earthly ministry. So His source was heaven, but his location was earth. His kingdom is the same, sourced in heaven but located in earth.

The Acts 1 passage and Romans 11 passage that have been cited are more than sufficient to show that there is a future earthly kingdom.

Christianity is not some intermediate stage in soteriology. Christianity is the fulfillment to Abraham. I don't believe the Jewish Nation will be pre-eminant in Soteriological matters again. Nor do I believe they will reinstitute animal sacrifices.

 

[OldRegular]

Old Regular said:
This scripture does not support the argument that you are making. To say that Christ's kingdom is not of this world does not refer to the location of the kingdom, but to its source. Consider this: Jesus, during his ministry, was not "OF this world", but he was certainly IN the world during his earthly ministry. So His source was heaven, but his location was earth. His kingdom is the same, sourced in heaven but located in earth.

The Acts 1 passage and Romans 11 passage that have been cited are more than sufficient to show that there is a future earthly kingdom.

What kingdom are you talking about?

The question is not about a future earthly kingdom, though I would be happy to discuss that on a separate topic, the question is:

Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews?

Acts 1 and Romans 11 show an earthly kingdom only by eisegesis not exegesis. Premillennialists generally agree that Revelation 20 is the only Scripture in the New Testament thai intimates an earthly kingdom. Of course I disagree but you are entitled to be wrong.

 

[OldRegular]

Wasn't the revelation to Margeret a private revelation?

Christianity is the promise of the Old testiment not a future Jewish nation.

Martyn Lloyd-Jones in his book, The Church and Last Things, asserts that Darby was influenced by Edward Irving, a charismatic Scottish preacher, who established a new church in London called the Catholic Apostolic Church. As reported by Lloyd-Jones [page 138] the origin of ‘the secret rapture’ is the result of a prophetic utterance in the Catholic Apostolic Church. This utterance was supposedly in tongues, interpreted by someone and considered ‘a revelation’. There is much dispute as to whether the so-called revelation occured in Irving’s church or elsewhere and was then discovered by Irving. The origin of this ‘revelation’ has been attributed to Margaret Macdonald of Port Glasgow, Scotland. Her revelation was first published in Robert Norton's Memoirs of James & George Macdonald, of Port Glasgow (1840), pp. 171-176. Norton published it again in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), pp. 15-18. Whether all of this is historical truth is subject to debate. However, it is apparently historical fact that there was a split within the Plymouth Bretheren as the result of Darby’s acceptance of the two event Second Coming and the ‘parenthesis church’. One truth should be evident. If the two event Second Coming is based on a revelation claimed by Margaret Macdonald, Edward Irving, or John Darby, or anyone in the Catholic Apostolic Church it is inherently false doctrine since the special revelation of God to man, the Scriptures, ceased with the Apostolic Age.

I agree that Christianity is the promise of the Old Testiment not a future Jewish nation.

 

[Allan]

Allan

Your response above is a lot of semantic nonsense as all the dispensational responses to my question have been.

In other words you can not refute the passage given because the context validates the Dispy position. Deal with the passage and context surrounding it. Jesus was teaching them about the Kingdom and then they asked if it was going to be restored again now. In the OP you asked asked a question, and it has been answered. Both case and thread should be closed.


Jesus Christ in Matthew 13:10-16 spoke to His disciples concerning the blindness of the Jews as prophesied in Isaiah.

Dispensationalism is based on the false teaching of John Darby, apparently influenced by a new revelation given to Margaret MacDonald, and propagated by the Scofield Bible. [/QUOTE
Well, you are are incorrect and have been proven 'wrong' (even by using your own sourse). So it isn't ignorance anymore but willful and sinful misinformation. Dispensationalism goes all the way back the first century Church and is even found in scripture - look it up "dispensation". :thumbs:

Sadly, many Southern Baptists have departed from the Doctrine they once held and have embraced this error. If the Apostle Paul were here today he would say to the dispensationalists exactly what he told the Jews in Rome: Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

So now you are saying the Southern Baptists are unsaved. And yes that is 'exactly' what you are saying. That goes against BB Policy/Rules. Read the passage you quote and note that it is about unbelievers NOT believers. Keep them in context and stop taking scripture out of it to make it say what it never has. Besides, the apostle Paul would be more disgusted with your misuse/abuse of scripture than he would peoples understanding of future things.

In fact other than Acts 1:6 about the only Scripture posted on this topic [other than the meanderings of Ed] have been posted by me.:laugh:

That is because you choose not see. I can post verses, and some whole chapters but even then it will not persaude you. I gave what you asked for "One" scripture which proves...

It can not be any plainer than the fact the Jesus was specifically teaching them of the Kingdom and they all asked the same question to Him. Lord, will you restore again the Kingdom to Israel now? To which He stated (paraphrased) that is God's business as to when He will restore it because He is the one who will do it. You must do what you are to be doing because it is 'your' business to tend to. He did not correct them, nor did He not answer them but specifically answered their question posed to Him concerning His previous teachings.

I will bow out here. You seem to have no real interest in research of the context of scripture nor of exegetical study concerning the passages given to see it they are true or not. You may believe whatever want that is your to do so. Could I be wrong? possibly - I am not infallable. Could you? Yep. But will tell you what, if we die before the coming of Christ and then know the truth there. I will make it a point to find you and either appologize for my understanding of scripture or I will await your.. or we could both be wrong and then just laugh about it.