Messianic Kingdom

[Pilgrimer]

And also, consider this, the “manifestation of the Kingdom of God on earth” when Jesus spoke those words was still the Old Covenant Mosaic economy. But that “manifestation of the Kingdom of God on earth” came to an abrupt and violent end in the days of Jesus’ first coming. The next “manifestation of the Kingdom of God on earth” will be the New Covenant Christian economy which includes and indeed, is built upon the Old Covenant house of Israel, of which that Jew Jesus Christ is the cornerstone, and Jewish Apostles are the foundation stones. Israel was not left out of the church, Israel is the very foundation that the church is built on. Read the description again in Revelation 21:9-22:5 about that New Jerusalem, the Bride of Christ, see what people make up her walls and her gates? Never let it be said that God has not fulfilled the promises of salvation He made to Israel. But as for the physical blessings of salvation, both Jew and Gentile, the redeemed of Israel and the redeemed of the nations, will have to wait for the world that is yet to come, the new earth, to enjoy the blessings of physical redemption. So as far as any promises to Israel of a physical nature, they will be fulfilled, not in some messianic kingdom of men’s imaginations, but in the new earth, when the cosmos has been redeemed and there will be no more sin, or pain, or weeping. This has been the plan of God from the very beginning, the Jewish authorities rejecting and slaying Jesus did not postpone Israel’s salvation, his rejection and death accomplished their salvation, procured it, brought it to pass.

So ultimately yes, Jesus will destroy the works of the devil and the cosmos over which He presently has control - this is the object of His incarnation concerning the redemption of the human race.

KJV 1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

I believe we are in agreement concerning this.

I believe Jesus destroying the works of the devil refers to Jesus taking away our sins. A few lines up John had said, “And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins.” What I think Jesus will ultimately destroy at the last judgment will be the Devil himself.

But let me ask you this then my brother, what is your take on the passages in Revelation 20-21 which clearly say (admittedly perhaps metaphorically) that satan will be bound and then loosed again.

Please bear with me as I paste in this lengthy passage

KJV Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

How does Matthew 13 (wheat and tares mingled together in the kingdom) relate? It is evident that the "visible" church is not all the church of Matthew 16 which jesus said He would/will build. Much of professing Christianity deny many of the essentials of the faith and practice wicked things. This is true also of local churches, a mixed mulitude so to speak.

I am particularly interested in your take on what this means. If the thousand years means a long time, what then does the loosing of satan and His deception of the nations represent ?

I am curious and sincerely interested as to whether this is a consideration within the partial preterist view. Is there a short time of deception just before the Second Coming in the preterist/partial preterist view and how can that deception be any worse than what the Church is presently afflicted with by the mixed mulitude of the workers of iniquity and those teaching deadly error?

Yes, my understanding is that there will be a short time of deception just before the return of Jesus. And, might I suggest that what the Church is presently afflicted with is the beginning of that deadly, deceptive error that strips Christ of his crown and throne and kingdom and power and offers in its place, to Christians and the world alike, a “messiah” who will one day reign, in some yet future kingdom . . .

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Marcia]

Does most of Dispensationalism teach that Jesus offered an earthly kingdom to the Jews? Or is that a straw man?

I thought that the offer to the Jews was to be part of the Kingdom of God by recognizing that Jesus is the Messiah, and that the Kingdom comes through him.

 

[OldRegular]

Does most of Dispensationalism teach that Jesus offered an earthly kingdom to the Jews? Or is that a straw man?

I thought that the offer to the Jews was to be part of the Kingdom of God by recognizing that Jesus is the Messiah, and that the Kingdom comes through him.

Herman A. Hoyt, a dispensationalist, writes in the book The Meaning of the Millennium, Four Views as follows [pages 85-86]:

"The Gospels always associate the kingdom declared by Christ with the kingdom of Old Testament prophecy. Its throne belongs to David.

<snip>

In spite of the clear teaching of Christ, the King and his kingdom were rejected. At the time of the first announcement of the kingdom Christ understood there was a contingency. The offer of the kingdom was genuine.

<snip>

Realizing that the rejection of himself and his kingdom was inevitable, Christ sought to prepare his own apostles for this event. In a series of parables he charts the "mystery" form of the kingdom through the period of Israel's rejection."

Unfortunately Hoyt fails to make his case by Scripture.

 

[HankD]

Yes, my understanding is that there will be a short time of deception just before the return of Jesus. And, might I suggest that what the Church is presently afflicted with is the beginning of that deadly, deceptive error that strips Christ of his crown and throne and kingdom and power and offers in its place, to Christians and the world alike, a “messiah” who will one day reign, in some yet future kingdom . . .

Pilgrim you surely can't mean that there was not satanic activity within even the early Church itself. Actually it was from the very early on in the beginning of the Church.

Jude
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are (present tense) certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.​

Acts 5

1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.​

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.​

1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.​

While I can see that Christ personally has overcome the world, and that power to overcome is available to me and indeed expected of me, the devil is still very active in this world and the church as John indicates above. Satan is not yet bound else where then comes the present evil which has been with the Church from the beginning both externally and internally.​

What then of the Church of Rome which while at one time was a thriving Church fell into apostacy. This goes along with the wheat and the tares. Deception and infiltration into the earthly manifestation of the Kingdom of God has been with us all along from the very beginning: Again:​

Acts 20

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.​

KJV 2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.​

Of course Christ reigns over His kingdom and is sovereign and one day will purge His kingdom as the Scripture indicate :​

Matthew 13

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.​

It seems evident to me pilgrim both by Scripture and observation that this has not yet happened.​

I think there can be no meeting of the minds over this.​

If you distinguish the local church from (dare I say it on the Baptist Board) the universal Church, the Church which Christ is building populated only by regenerated persons then I can somewhat agree. But even in the best of the local churches there always was some satanic influence even from the beginning as indicated by the warnings to the 7 churches of the Revelation (for instance):​

Revelation 2
24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:​

Need I mention the Corinthian Church? Not a model of righteousness with folks coming to the Lord's table drunk as well as practicing other iniquites such as fellowshiping with devils:​

1 Corinthians 10
20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?​

2 Corinthians

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.​

When I was first saved out of the Church of Rome over 40 years ago, these verses and many others confirmed on a scriptural level what I knew first hand, that satan is indeed active both in the world and the churches and has been all these many years since Christ returned to His Father.

HankD​

 

[Me4Him]

No one else has been able to answer the question in the OP. Surely you do not believe the passages you quoted constitute the offer of an earthly Messianic Kingdom?

Mt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Do you know the difference between the "kingdom of God" being "within you",

and "You" being "Within" the "kingdom of heaven"???

Lu 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Have you ever asked the question, what would be different if Jerusalem had accepted Jesus instead of rejecting him???

 

[HankD]

Does most of Dispensationalism teach that Jesus offered an earthly kingdom to the Jews? Or is that a straw man?

I thought that the offer to the Jews was to be part of the Kingdom of God by recognizing that Jesus is the Messiah, and that the Kingdom comes through him.

Hi Marcia, let me elucidate with some of my own thoughts gleaned from reading dispensational literature and comparing Scripture with Scripture concerning this phase of "eschatological" defining that the Church is currently going through.

This can also serve as summary for others to review as well.

To begin with I don’t subscribe to any one particular dispensational view which runs the gamut from Bullinger to Schofield to Walvoord. Some “hyper” dispensationalists confine the Church Scriptures to the writings of Paul alone; the other NT books are still considered “under the law” and not written directly to the Church.

There was at least one individual on the BB who held that belief and we engaged in some interesting exchanges although it eventually became an ad hominem attack upon all who disagreed with him.

I do hold to most of the core beliefs of what might be called traditional or moderate dispensationalism.

Many speak of “dispensationalism” as a modern invention or more kindly a modern development. However I have posted quotes from early church fathers concerning elements of dispensationalism such as the “tribulation” and the “millennium” or “Chiliad” (another common name of the millennium in the early writings).

Dispensationalism (and/or the fancy general name “eschatology”) is only modernly being codified and brought together in a systematic way. But there have always been elements of what is thought to be dispensational teaching from the earliest times of the church. In fact it was Augustine who was among the very first to “spiritualize” (not literal but a metaphor or a figure of speech meaning a long time) the millennium and popularize that view.

Later these thousands of pages of early church fathers became summarized into what is called “systematic theology” books in which some order and sense was made of the several elements of Christian theology. I believe the first Systematic Theology was authored by John of Damascus in the 8th century.

As Baptists we hold as the first distinctive that the Scripture is the final authority of matters of faith and practice. However as any pedigreed pastor/preacher/missionary will tell you, courses on Systematic Theology are required.

Why do I say all this? Because although the total concept of dispensationalism or even eschatology (the study of “last” things) was not fully developed early on in the church does not mean that those pertinent elements of eschatology (the dispensational kind as well as other kinds) held by the churches gleaned from the Scriptures, did not exist but that it was fragmented among the writings of the fathers: from Apostolic (those who were contemporary with some or one of the apostles) on to more modern writers.

Again, the Scripture is our “final authority”. This does not mean the same as “sola scriptura” – Scripture alone in that those interpretations of that final authority many differ. We are not confined to interpretive pronouncements of Pope, Bishop, Synod, Creed, Convention President, etc…

This works together with “soul liberty”.

This, I guess, is an apologetic as to the so called “newness” of dispensationalism.

Now as to the offer of the kingdom, I’ll continue in the next post.

 

[HankD]

Part 2

The fact is that the Nation of Israel already had possession of the earthly manifestation of the Kingdom of God when Christ was here, He being the true King who would sit in the earthly throne of David being his promised Seed.

Exodus 19:
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

1 Chronicles 17
11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.
13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:
14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

And many other passages.

Obviously the kingdom was in suppression, the Romans and other Gentile nations had come, they saw and they conquered and Israel had now lost the power of the authority (as under Solomon; 1 Kings 10 and 2 Chronicles 9) in the exercise of the glory of that kingdom.

The national leaders of Israel Having resisted Christ in His statement “Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. He then says this to them:

Matthew
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

Presumably this other nation is either restored Israel or the Gentile Nation to whom the Apostles were to be sent. I believe it to be restored Israel, the 144,000 of the Revelation.

The point is that Christ acknowledged that though they were powerless in terms of the Kingdom of God He was there to deliver up that power if they would accept Him as their King.

After the resurrection the apostles then said to Him:

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

The answer was neither completely negative nor positive but more towards the fact that it would happen but just when was not for them to know at this time and that it was the decision which the Father would make.

For the moment, they were to go into the whole world with the witness of the Gospel.

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Finally Paul says in relation to fallen Israel:

KJV Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
…
7 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

So, my belief is that after this “fullness of the Gentiles” has come in, Israel as a literal nation (howbeit fully redeemed, the 144,000) shall be restored and become the head of the nations rather than the tail for 1000 years ruled and reigned over by Christ and the Apostles.

Luke 22
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I realize there is a myriad of differing beliefs and variants in what is called “eschatology”. Hopefully I have answered your question from a “dispensational” point of view.

For a partial preterist point of view you should go to the Sproul site that grasshopper gave. Sproul is a wonderfully compassionate man without a mean bone in his body, understanding and expressing his love for brethren who hold to different positions.


HankD

 

[OldRegular]

Mt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Do you know the difference between the "kingdom of God" being "within you",

and "You" being "Within" the "kingdom of heaven"???

Lu 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Have you ever asked the question, what would be different if Jerusalem had accepted Jesus instead of rejecting him???

You are still not addressing the question raised in the OP!

 

[Me4Him]

You are still not addressing the question raised in the OP!

Might help if you took those "Rose Colored Glasses" off,

I don't think you can see anything, with them on. :laugh: :tonofbricks:

 

[OldRegular]

My view of the The Mission of the Nation Israel in the Work of Jesus Christ, Part 1

Charles Ryrie [Dispensationalism, page 39] states that the basic theological test that determines if a person is a dispensationalist is whether or not they consistently distinguish between Israel and the church, that is, he agrees with Chafer that “throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity”. Ryrie [Dispensationalism, page 130] in discussing the salvation of pre-Abrahamic Saints poses the question: “If God were saving people before the call of Abraham, why did He call out and mark off a national group? If spiritual salvation was being experienced by people before Abraham, why not carry on this redemptive work in the same manner without the national distinction that was made when Israel was singled out from the other nations?” Given that the dispensational insistence that God has two separate people, the nation Israel and the Church, is a divisive force in the Christian community the answer to this question is particularly significant.

The Bible begins with the story of God’s creative activity. The culmination of that creation was the first man and woman, Adam and Eve. When God created Adam and Eve he created them upright, or righteous, fully capable of freely choosing between good and evil. God made a special place, a garden called Eden, in which this first man and his wife would live. There God would fellowship with this first family. When God placed Adam and Eve in Eden He gave instructions as to their responsibility.

Genesis 2:15-17, KJV
15. And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

We do not know how long the blessed fellowship between God and the first family continued, Scripture does not indicate. It appears from the above Scripture that man, body and soul, physically and spiritually, was created to live forever. Because God created man righteous he [Adam and Eve] had the ability to to keep God’s instructions perfectly, even in the face of temptation. He also had the ability to freely choose between good and evil. Sadly he chose evil. Man rebelled against God; Eve yielded to temptation, Adam disobeyed with deliberate intent [Genesis 3: 1-6].

After Adam and Eve sinned in Eden God took the initiative, sought out Adam and Eve, and, in His grace, provided a covering for their nakedness, their sin. That covering required the shedding of innocent blood, in this case the blood of animals. This covering, however, was only provisional, foreshadowing the perfect sacrifice that was to come. God then gives mankind the initial promise of a redeemer, that perfect sacrifice, the seed or offspring of woman alone who would bruise the head of Satan, that is defeat him.

Genesis 3:14-15, KJV
14. And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

This initial promise, the initial revelation and the initiation in time of the Covenant of Grace, is veiled to say the least and could not be understood without the continuing revelation of God. But God does not leave us without hope. As the Biblical history of man unfolds so does God’s purpose of redemption.

If the Redeemer was to be born of a woman and that birth was to take place in history the way must be prepared. The Redeemer must be identified with God since He was to reconcile sinful man to God and since He was a man, the seed of a woman, He must be identified with the people of God. It was necessary, therefore, that God call out a people for His Name. Unto that people would be given the oracles of God [Romans 3:2] and through that people would come the promised Redeemer.

In due time God called out of idolatry a man named Abram [Genesis 12:1-3], changed his name to Abraham [Genesis 17:5] and promised that in his seed all the nations of the earth would be blessed [Genesis 22:18]. God’s covenant with Abraham is frequently designated an unconditional covenant [Open Bible, page 14]. It is true that this covenant is unilaterally imposed by God but it is conditional upon Abraham’s declaration of faith and the fruit of that faith, his obedience.

The Apostle Paul tells us that seed of Abraham through which all the nations of the earth would be blessed was Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:16, KJV
16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

As time passed the lineage of the ‘seed of woman’ was further defined: Abraham’s son Isaac to the exclusion of Ishmael [Genesis 17:18-22], Isaac’s son Jacob to the exclusion of Esau [Genesis 28:10-15]. Out of Jacob would come twelve sons and the infant nation Israel which God, consistent with His promise to Abraham [Genesis 15:12-16], moved to Egypt. In Egypt the lineage of the ‘seed of woman’ was further defined: Jacobs son Judah to the exclusion of the eleven [Genesis 49:8-10].

Under God’s providential care that nation of some 70 people [Genesis 46:27] which emigrated to Egypt grew to a great nation of several hundred thousand people. In time these people were placed in servitude to the Egyptians [Exodus 1:8-14], a servitude that caused them to cry out to God for deliverance [Exodus 2:23-25]. Under the leadership of Moses the children of Israel returned to Canaan, the ‘promised land’, after residing in Egypt for about 400 years.

God brought the entire Hebrew nation, the children of Israel, into a covenant relation with Himself when He delivered them from bondage in Egypt . As with Abraham the covenant was unilaterally imposed by God with the promise:

Exodus 19:5, KJV
5. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine:

and the requirement:

Exodus 19:6a KJV
6. And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.

God gave the Hebrew nation the Ten Commandments, the Ark of the Covenant, and the tabernacle with its ordinances thet they might become a ‘holy nation’ in a pagan world . The remainder of the Old Testament Scripture shows the utter failure of the nation Israel to meet the requirements of the covenant. Yet Scripture also shows that for ~1800 years this people, a chosen vessel through which the ‘seed of woman’ is to be born, were under the providential care of God. Within that nation Israel there was at all times a people faithful to God, spiritual Israel, the Church in the wilderness [Acts 7:38].

The lineage of the ‘seed of woman’ was preserved and further defined eventually leading to David, a man after God’s own heart, all under the care of Sovereign God. As the lineage was further defined so was the mission and identity of the ‘seed’. He would be born of a virgin, thus fulfilling the promise made in Eden [Genesis 3:15]. God speaks through the prophet Isaiah:

Isaiah 7:14, KJV
14. Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

He would establish a kingdom that would stand forever [not a kingdom that would last only one thousand years]:

Daniel 2:44, KJV
44. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, [but] it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Daniel 7:13,14, KJV
13. I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

And He would suffer for the sins of His people:

Isaiah 53:4-6, KJV
4. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5. But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

 

[OldRegular]

My view of The Mission of the Nation Israel in the Work of Jesus Christ, Part 2

Charles Ryrie [Dispensationalism, page 39] states that the basic theological test that determines if a person is a dispensationalist is whether or not they consistently distinguish between Israel and the church, that is, he agrees with Chafer that “throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity”. Ryrie [Dispensationalism, page 130] in discussing the salvation of pre-Abrahamic Saints poses the question: “If God were saving people before the call of Abraham, why did He call out and mark off a national group? If spiritual salvation was being experienced by people before Abraham, why not carry on this redemptive work in the same manner without the national distinction that was made when Israel was singled out from the other nations?” Given that the dispensational insistence that God has two separate people, the nation Israel and the Church, is a divisive force in the Christian community the answer to this question is particularly significant.


Now all this was prophesied to take place in history and did take place in history. God, through the writers of the New Testament speaks. The Apostle Matthew writes:

Matthew 1:21, KJV
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Luke tells us that the virgin conceived through the power of God and that the fruit of her womb, this ‘seed of woman’, was the promised redeemer, the Son of God.

Luke 1:26, 27, 35, KJV
26. And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27. To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name [was] Mary.
35. And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The Apostle Paul in his letter to the Galatians writes:

Galatians 4:4, KJV
4. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

The promised Redeemer, the Son of God, the ‘seed of woman’ promised in Eden, is born of the virgin Mary to be rejected and crucified by ‘national’ Israel. Israel’s action in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ was according to the eternal purpose of God: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:[Acts 2:23, KJV]. The Kingdom they mistakenly thought was exclusively for them was taken away and given to another people:

Matthew 21:43, KJV
43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

What nation was to be the recipient of the Kingdom of God? The obvious answer is the Church. However, for certainty we turn to Scripture. We read in the Gospel of Luke:

Luke 12:32, KJV
32. Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

The ‘little flock’ is the Church, the ‘called out’ ones, who would bring forth the fruits of the Kingdom. For those who would insist that the Church cannot be identified as a ‘nation’ we turn to the writings of the Apostle Peter in which he uses the language of Exodus 18:5,6 to describe the Church:

1 Peter 2:9, KJV
9. But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

There is no Scripture in the New Testament that indicates that the judgment pronounced against Israel in Matthew 21:43 was or ever will be revoked. Therefore, it still stands. The Kingdom belongs to the little flock, the Church. The mission of the nation Israel in God’s purpose of redemption had been accomplished.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Pilgrim you surely can't mean that there was not satanic activity within even the early Church itself. Actually it was from the very early on in the beginning of the Church.
While I can see that Christ personally has overcome the world, and that power to overcome is available to me and indeed expected of me, the devil is still very active in this world and the church as John indicates above. Satan is not yet bound else where then comes the present evil which has been with the Church from the beginning both externally and internally.

Well, consider this: two passages of Scripture you quoted actually go on to say this:

“…the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath (present tense) reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day . . .” (Jude 6) and also this . . . “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (past tense), and delivered (past tense) them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto the judgment . . .” 2 Peter 2:4

These two passages above speak of the fallen angels already being bound in the present tense, something that had apparently taken place at least by the time these two letters were written. Let’s not get into a lengthy discussion on this thread about when that might have occurred, but I don’t think any reasonable person would try to contend that it means therefore that there has been no demonic activity in the world since these fallen angels have been bound.

I don’t think fallen angels or Satan being bound means they are totally incapacitated and unable to exercise any power. I think it means they are confined to the regions of darkness and no longer have access to the heavenlies where we know from Job that Satan clearly had access before, and even was able to come before God Himself and accuse the saints. But what the coming and work of Christ accomplished is that Satan was cast down out of heaven and no longer has access to the ear of God to accuse the saints (there is now therefore no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus). He was cast down by the lifting up of Christ on the Cross. And when he was cast down, he became angry because he knew he would only have a “short time” before he would be delivered to hell and chained or confined to the regions of darkness, unable to go in and out among the Sons of God. So Satan’s only sphere of power since the coming of the Gospel is in the regions of darkness. It does not mean he is powerless, but that he is limited or confined in his ability to exercise his lying power, due to the coming of the light of the Gospel into the world (“In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not”).

Of course Christ reigns over His kingdom and is sovereign and one day will purge His kingdom as the Scripture indicate :

Matthew 13
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

It seems evident to me pilgrim both by Scripture and observation that this has not yet happened.

I think there can be no meeting of the minds over this.

If you distinguish the local church from (dare I say it on the Baptist Board) the universal Church, the Church which Christ is building populated only by regenerated persons then I can somewhat agree. But even in the best of the local churches there always was some satanic influence even from the beginning as indicated by the warnings to the 7 churches of the Revelation (for instance):

I do absolutely make a distinction between those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life and those who have their names enrolled on some church roster; between the spotless, blood bought, born again, washed and regenerated, Walkers in Light from those "Whose life laughs through, and spits at their creed, Who maintain Him in word, and defy Him in deed," as Browning once so eloquently put it. Yes, there is definitely a distinction to be made between those who attend church and those who are the church, and I'm about as Baptist as you can get!lol


But I believe the scripture you quoted above refers to the Old Covenant form of the Kingdom of God, earthly Israel, and the judgment of that kingdom, that earthly manifestation of the Kingdom of God in which men such as Caiaphas could hold the most sacred office of all, the High Priest of God, and yet be totally sold out to the devil!!! Yes, that Kingdom of God was purged of such men, taken from them and give to a nation of Jews and Gentiles who love God and obey Him.



Paul teaches about all of this in his letter to the Hebrews 12:25-29 when he draws a parallel between the “shaking” that took place at the establishment of the Old Covenant (when God spoke audibly and shook the earth) and the shaking that would soon take place now that the New Covenant had been established, when God wold speak from heaven and shake not only the earth but also heaven. The word "restore" in terms of restoring the kingdom has the same meaning as the word we use for "reformation," as in the Protestant Reformation, but the "reformation" God accomplished included not just earthly institutions, but spiritual ones as well.


“See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. For our God is a consuming fire.”

Paul is teaching here that God was very soon going to “shake the earth and the heavens” so that those created, temporal things of earth might be removed (the Old Covenant form of the kingdom of God which was earthly and therefore temporal) and only those things which cannot be removed might remain (the New Covenant form of the kingdom of God which is heavenly and therefore eternal). Now that would also include the sacrifices, and the priests, and even the people, but particularly the religious leaders of Israel, who in the Old Covenant dispensation were the spiritual representatives of God on earth and exercised spiritual authority, ergo, they are often called in scriptures the kings, and princes, and rulers of the earth. This fall and destruction of the sinners of Israel is described symbolically as the “stars of heaven” falling to the earth “as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs when she is shaken of a mighty wind,” describing the terrible judgment that was coming upon those people who had been given to rule over God’s kingdom on earth under the Old Covenant dispensation, but who were purged out in a terrible judgment that came to pass very soon after those words were spoken. Most of the warnings of impending judgement foretold by the Law and the Propehts and spoken by the Baptist, Jesus and Paul were speaking of the judgment of the Law which was about to come to pass upon those who were under the Law, a judgment which would destroy the Old Covenant kingdom of Israel, not restore it.

When I was first saved out of the Church of Rome over 40 years ago, these verses and many others confirmed on a scriptural level what I knew first hand, that satan is indeed active both in the world and the churches and has been all these many years since Christ returned to His Father.

Granted, Satan is very active in the realms of darkness, but in the Kingdom of God, in the New Jerusalem, in the courts of God’s House, in the kingdom of Light, in the New Covenant kingdom, he is nowhere to be seen.
“And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it : and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth , neither whaosoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.” Revelation 21:24-27.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

Mt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Do you know the difference between the "kingdom of God" being "within you",

and "You" being "Within" the "kingdom of heaven"???

These verses argue for a spiritual kingdom, not an earthly one.

Lu 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Have you ever asked the question, what would be different if Jerusalem had accepted Jesus instead of rejecting him???

If Jerusalem had accepted Jesus before his crucifixion there would be no salvation. That was why they were blinded.

If Jerusalem had accepted Jesus after his crucifixion there would have been a lot more Jews saved.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

There is no Scripture in the New Testament that indicates that the judgment pronounced against Israel in Matthew 21:43 was or ever will be revoked. Therefore, it still stands. The Kingdom belongs to the little flock, the Church. The mission of the nation Israel in God’s purpose of redemption had been accomplished.

And that is the Gospel truth!

That "little flock" referred to the Jewish Christians, the "remnant" of Israel, which is numbered 144,000 who "follow the Lamb," who were "redeemed from among men," being the "firstfruits" of the harvest of the Gospel, that precious remnant of Jewish Christians who suffered beatings and torture and death to bear witness to the life, death and resurrection of Christ, who left us their eye-witness accounts and inspired teachings (the New Testament), the Jews whose skirts Gentiles have taken hold of and been led up to the New Jerusalem to "tabernacle" with God, those Jewish Christians with whom the Gentiles have become joint heirs of all the promises of God now and forever.

Thank God for the redeemed of Israel, those Jews who loved God more than they feared death!

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[HankD]

I think we have reached what is commonly called the point of diminishing returns.

Also, it is just too easy to slip into the ad hominem method which has not happened here.

Personally I believe there is a wealth of information here and references enough for any who are interested to contnue a profitable research of their own.

I will tenatively bow out unless I am addressed directly or I am quoted with some misunderstanding by the quoter and/or feel the need to clarify something.

We can all agree that we will spend eternity with our God in that city not built with hands, the New Jerusalem in the new heavens and the new earth. We differ perhaps only in the details of the historical events which lead up to that blessed chapter of the Bible Revelation 21.

If I were not dispensational my second choice would partial-preterist.


Blessings to all.
HankD

 

[Me4Him]

These verses argue for a spiritual kingdom, not an earthly one.

Jesus didn't offer the "kingdom of God" to Israel, he offer the "kingdom of Heaven",

Do you know the difference??

If Jerusalem had accepted Jesus before his crucifixion there would be no salvation. That was why they were blinded.

If Jerusalem had accepted Jesus after his crucifixion there would have been a lot more Jews saved.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

Jesus, his mission/death, was "Foreordained" before the foundation of the world,

That can't change, regardless of who accepts/reject him.

Israel had a choice, so what would be different if they had accepted him???

 

[Pilgrimer]

I think we have reached what is commonly called the point of diminishing returns.

Also, it is just too easy to slip into the ad hominem method which has not happened here.

Personally I believe there is a wealth of information here and references enough for any who are interested to contnue a profitable research of their own.

I will tenatively bow out unless I am addressed directly or I am quoted with some misunderstanding by the quoter and/or feel the need to clarify something.

We can all agree that we will spend eternity with our God in that city not built with hands, the New Jerusalem in the new heavens and the new earth. We differ perhaps only in the details of the historical events which lead up to that blessed chapter of the Bible Revelation 21.

If I were not dispensational my second choice would partial-preterist.


Blessings to all.
HankD

Hank, the gracious spirit in which you conduct yourself raised a mere debate to the level of fellowship. Peace, joy and love, my brother, in that name that is above every name that can be named . . . Jesus, the Christ!

A closing thought . . .

"Two men look out through the same bars:
One sees the mud, and one the stars."


Pilgrimer~

 

[OldRegular]

And that is the Gospel truth!

That "little flock" referred to the Jewish Christians, the "remnant" of Israel, which is numbered 144,000 who "follow the Lamb," who were "redeemed from among men," being the "firstfruits" of the harvest of the Gospel, that precious remnant of Jewish Christians who suffered beatings and torture and death to bear witness to the life, death and resurrection of Christ, who left us their eye-witness accounts and inspired teachings (the New Testament), the Jews whose skirts Gentiles have taken hold of and been led up to the New Jerusalem to "tabernacle" with God, those Jewish Christians with whom the Gentiles have become joint heirs of all the promises of God now and forever.

Thank God for the redeemed of Israel, those Jews who loved God more than they feared death!

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

In context the "little flock" was certainly composed of Jewish Christians. However, that "little flock", the incipient Church, in obedience to the command of Jesus Christ spread His Gospel, "the power of God unto salvation" throughout the world. Those who had been afar off were no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God.

 

[HankD]

Hank, the gracious spirit in which you conduct yourself raised a mere debate to the level of fellowship. Peace, joy and love, my brother, in that name that is above every name that can be named . . . Jesus, the Christ!

A closing thought . . .

"Two men look out through the same bars:
One sees the mud, and one the stars."


Pilgrimer~

Thanks pilgrimer, one day, perhaps soon, we will meet.

HankD

 

[Pilgrimer]

In context the "little flock" was certainly composed of Jewish Christians. However, that "little flock", the incipient Church, in obedience to the command of Jesus Christ spread His Gospel, "the power of God unto salvation" throughout the world. Those who had been afar off were no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God.

Agreed, to a point. I believe the Gentiles were the "other sheep" Jesus spoke of having in John 10:16. This "little flock" was those earliest Jewish believers, starting with those faithful 120 in the upper room, but probably including all those multitudes throughout the Holy Land that heard and received the Gospel during those tumultuous years, who were, after all, only a remnant of the whole nation, ergo a "little flock."

Actually, I believe this small band of Jewish believers included some who were his sheep even before Jesus was born, like Mary and Joseph, and Zacharias and Elizabeth, John the Baptist, and Simeon, and Anna. There is a beautiful portrait of what this godly church of Jews, called by the old-timers the "Mother Church," what she looked like in the spirit, in Revelation 12.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer