Messianics - The "just In case" cult

[SpiritualMadMan]

OK, now that I've got everyones attention.

I have a problem I have a dear friend of the family who has become Messianic. She was a gentile believer. Sunday school teacher and quite well versed in God's Word.

Now, she has become Messianic and has gotten my adult children involved to the point I can no longer enjoy Honey Ham at home.

But, the worst of it is, is that it's in direct conflict with Galatians 3-5.

I have no problem with voluntary observance because the feasts and holidays are a beautiful "Type" of the New Covenant in Christ Jesus.

But, when I press for an answer as to whether these are legally required I get a response that they are being observed, "Just in Case". That is What Christ has done on the Cross may not be quite enough.

To which I have to say, "Where is the confidence in whom you've commited your soul to?" Can't they trust Christ to perfect them without a fearful, "Just In case".

Then the behavior is that of a cult operator in that infomration is passed to members of my family... But, not to me, the "supposed" Spiritual Head of Household under both Judaism and Christianity.

If I press further I am immediately hit with keeping the 10 commandments.

OK I believe that we are obligated to keep the moral laws of God. But, not as a "just in case" but because of the Freedom we have in Christ not to sin. To resist sin in His Spirit. But, even there His grace is sufficient.

As in Matthew 7:12

Of course as soon as any acknowledgment of the ten commandments is made you have the proverbial Camels Nose under the tent and she immediately starts in on the Mosaic Laws, food laws, and sabbath keeping.

If I set her in her place I lose my adult children. And, to be honest she really is a good friend and I do like her, as does my wife.

The latest confusion for my wife comes from a facebook post every one in my family got but me on how demonic and unscriptural Chrstmas is!

(Man, if any voice had the "Spookey Dude" hypnotic quality this voice did. It sounded more satanic in it's timber and quality than anything I've heard to date!)

Lastly, there is a clear mind set about physical actions without any regard to the heart state. For instance it doesn't matter if my wife likes setting up a tree for its sheer beauty without any other reasons.

But, to this Messianic the mere fact that a tree is set up is evil and means you are evil, too.

Quite Frustrated, Clueless, and not at all sure how to proceed.

 

[Fred's Wife]

Sounds like you need to break fellowship with this person. You also need to talk with your adult children (you didn't say whether they lived at home or were living elsewhere and on their own) and let them know why you and your wife need to break fellowship with this friend.

Find out as much as you can about the Messianic movement....it's also called the Hebrew Roots cult. I've never heard the expression "Just in Case" used for Messianics...something new to me.

Sounds like a resurgence of what I call "Galatianism"....the "Judaizing of the Gentile Christians"...adding works/law to the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. I will be praying for your family SMM.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Thanks! I accept!

 

[Amy.G]

S

Sounds like a resurgence of what I call "Galatianism"....the "Judaizing of the Gentile Christians"...adding works/law to the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. I will be praying for your family SMM.

That's exactly what it is from what I've seen. My best friend and her brother started going to a Messianic church here in my small town several years ago. She had to get away from it because of the legalism, but he is still in it. He also attends a Baptist church on Sunday. He goes to the Messianic church on Saturday. It has made him a very confused person, although he doesn't think so. His theology is a mixture of grace and law, which there is really no such thing. Grace + works still = works.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Messianics don't believe, accept or confess Jesus' Divinity. They don't even accept the Name whereby our Lord Jesus Christ made Himself known among God’s People, the Christians— the Church. Messianics don’t therefore even regard the Church of Jesus' Christ as God’s People; they regard the Christian Church as the cult, and themselves as the Israel of God .... oops, the Isra-el of El-- El-o-him. El owes Israel. El owes Israel what? Yes, the Messianics keep the Law; so El should owe them, I would guess, salvation— salvation by works— by their own works of the Law: “Which things are the ‘logic’ indeed”, behind their ‘repute’ for their “wisdom in self-imposed worship and sadistic humiliation of the body not in the least respectful but to fleshly pride purely.” 2Colossians 2:23. So I can believe this thing mentioned, “Just in case”.

The Messianics claim they are the Israel of God, but they are a branch of Islam under the pseudonym of ‘Christians’ to hide their true identity. They are what John called “Nicolaitanes” – people who profess and pretend they are Jews just like they profess and pretend they are Christians but are neither Jews nor Christians no matter how hard they try to fool everybody that they are Jews. God says He HATES them and their religion. Because they are Islam who abuse the Name of Jesus Christ. THAT IS VERY DANGEROUS!

Shun them like the plague and OPPOSE them like a true soldier for Christ with the SWORD OF THE WORD!

The Messianics are the latest in the files of the devil’s hords commanded by himself to storm Stronghold Sabbath of the LORD God. Before them, God thus concerning spake, the troops of Seventh-day Adventism fell and littered the fore-courts in Fort Truth Seventh Day. God singlehandedly vindicates his Cause; He needs no human help; nothing from Unitarianism. By His Word only shall God lift high the standard in the Name of Jesus Christ and plant the Day named after Him in His Triumph over the last enemy, death, “The Lord’s Day”, “for a sign”!

 

[preacher4truth]

OK, now that I've got everyones attention.

I have a problem I have a dear friend of the family who has become Messianic. She was a gentile believer. Sunday school teacher and quite well versed in God's Word.

Now, she has become Messianic and has gotten my adult children involved to the point I can no longer enjoy Honey Ham at home.

But, the worst of it is, is that it's in direct conflict with Galatians 3-5.

I have no problem with voluntary observance because the feasts and holidays are a beautiful "Type" of the New Covenant in Christ Jesus.

But, when I press for an answer as to whether these are legally required I get a response that they are being observed, "Just in Case". That is What Christ has done on the Cross may not be quite enough.

To which I have to say, "Where is the confidence in whom you've commited your soul to?" Can't they trust Christ to perfect them without a fearful, "Just In case".

Then the behavior is that of a cult operator in that infomration is passed to members of my family... But, not to me, the "supposed" Spiritual Head of Household under both Judaism and Christianity.

If I press further I am immediately hit with keeping the 10 commandments.

OK I believe that we are obligated to keep the moral laws of God. But, not as a "just in case" but because of the Freedom we have in Christ not to sin. To resist sin in His Spirit. But, even there His grace is sufficient.

As in Matthew 7:12

Of course as soon as any acknowledgment of the ten commandments is made you have the proverbial Camels Nose under the tent and she immediately starts in on the Mosaic Laws, food laws, and sabbath keeping.

If I set her in her place I lose my adult children. And, to be honest she really is a good friend and I do like her, as does my wife.

The latest confusion for my wife comes from a facebook post every one in my family got but me on how demonic and unscriptural Chrstmas is!

(Man, if any voice had the "Spookey Dude" hypnotic quality this voice did. It sounded more satanic in it's timber and quality than anything I've heard to date!)

Lastly, there is a clear mind set about physical actions without any regard to the heart state. For instance it doesn't matter if my wife likes setting up a tree for its sheer beauty without any other reasons.

But, to this Messianic the mere fact that a tree is set up is evil and means you are evil, too.

Quite Frustrated, Clueless, and not at all sure how to proceed.

That's sad and a mess.

You know your scriptural duty.

Is God testing your loyalty to Him, above all things and others, and testing your loyalty to the work of Christ alone, and your stand upon that, instead of theirs, at this time?

I will pray for you bro.

:thumbs:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I disagree with the primary assessment given here with regard to Messianic Jews. For the most part they are charismatic evangelicals that believe they are following the very early church to include certain Jewish practices or should I say primarily Jewish practices. To include using Jesus Name here are some of their statements. Note the primary difference I see with baptist and some other evangelicals is the bolded statement which places them in the same catagory (sort of) as CoC.

As a result of Yeshua's sacrifice, salvation is available to all mankind.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 [5] For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Messiah Yeshua, [6] who gave himself as a ransom for all men -- the testimony given in its proper time.

A lot of people are under the mistaken impression that we are saved because of Yeshua's sacrifice. It is important to realize that a person must do certain things to obtain salvation. Just because it is available doesn't mean he automatically gets it. Salvation is like a newspaper:

Someone had to do something in order for it to exist.
It's available before you ask for it.
You can't do it for yourself.
It doesn't come automatically.
You can't earn it.
You don't deserve to get it.
You have to ask for it.
You have to follow the rules if you want to keep it.
Once you receive it, it's up to you to do something with it!

Yeshua finished the work of salvation on Calvary. Nothing remains to be done to obtain salvation.

Obviously they aren't holding to reformed theology and they beg the question what rules do they have to follow to keep their salvation (they believe one can apostate very armenian). However, these are their stated rules.

Admit he is a sinner
Accept Yeshua as his personal savior and Lord
Sincerely repent of his sins
Sincerely intend to try to lead a new life without sin

So much like Holiness Pentecostals with a Jewish flavor. Yet I have notted a movement with in this denomination towards "One Law" which may very well be guilty of the accusations I see here.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Yes, not all Messianics are as "in Yer Face" as regards to Law Keeping for people outside their group.

I guess it's like when no one in the Assemblies of God would even think of going to a Movie...

Some would castigate anyone else who would do so...

Some would softly decline and explain why...

Some Christians are OK with an occaisional beer.

But, with my understanding of Scripture, and my family History drinking any alchohol would be sin, for me. While only a possibility for others. As long as they didn't get drunk...

But, that's another thread.

 

[DixieBoy]

SMM, I am very sorry to hear about the situation. Is there a link to share to one of their websites? I was born and raised in a cult that sounds very similar. Spend 44 years of my live therein. I pastored a splinter sub-cult for 7 years. The cult rejected the Trinity was strict about Sabbaths, Holy Days, food laws, etc. They considered Christianity outside their group to be pagan and apostate.

If it is similar, I may be able to give you a few tips on how to deal with them.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Sorry, links when asked for seem to be fogotten about. Very Frustrating.

I'll ask again, though.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

They have millions of links on the www. Google with church of god or COG ... innumerable! The devil is awake and update in IT.

 

[Chowmah]

OK, now that I've got everyones attention.

I have a problem I have a dear friend of the family who has become Messianic. She was a gentile believer. Sunday school teacher and quite well versed in God's Word.

Now, she has become Messianic

Theres the problem with your dear friend SpiritualMadMan. Shes well versed in Gods Word. If not she probably would follow the words of your denominational pulpiteers. Like lambs to the slaughter.

 

[Chowmah]

Sounds like you need to break fellowship with this person.

Well Freds wife, if we simply go by whats written in the new covenant scriptures its the Messy who should break ties with SMM.

2 COR. 6 [16] And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for YE ARE THE TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. [17] Wherefore come out from among them, and BE YE SEPARATE, saith the Lord, AND TOUCH NOT THE UNCLEAN THING; and I will receive you, [18] And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

This NEW TESTAMENT scripture tells us as believers we are not to touch the unclean thing and to separate ourselves from them that do

ISAIAH 52 [9] Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath REDEEMED Jerusalem. [10] The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the SALVATION of our God. [11] Depart ye, depart ye, GO YE OUT from thence, TOUCH NO UNCLEAN THING; GO YE OUT OF THE MIDST OF HER; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the Lord. [12] For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the Lord will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.

Redeemed. Salvation. Words you would find in the new testament concerning Jesus. And as is always the case, you will find whats being said in the new testament has already been said in the old or prophecied.

LEVITICUS 20 [22] Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. [23] And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. [24] But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD, WHICH HAVE SEPARATED YOU from other people. [25] YE SHALL THEREFORE PUT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CLEAN BEASTS AND UNCLEAN, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean. [26] And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the Lord am holy, and have severed you from other people, THAT YE SHOULD BE MINE.

Be ye separate.

DEUT. 14 [8] And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.

Everywhere theres lots of piggies....

ISAIAH 66 [15] For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. [16] For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many. [17] They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, EATING SWINE'S FLESH, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.

The above scripture is speaking of the “Day of the Lord”. On that day, the fat lady sings. Because that day has not yet arrived, the people who do not want to believe these scriptures cannot claim its for ancient Israel. Theres one God, and His people one. There are not different rules for different people when the Day of the Lord arrives. Id really love to hear why you believe "eating swines flesh" is in that DAY OF THE LORD scripture?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

theres the problem with your dear friend spiritualmadman. Shes well versed in gods word. If not she probably would follow the words of your denominational pulpiteers. Like lambs to the slaughter.

מצטער, אני לא מבין

 

[Chowmah]

Well Freds wife, if we simply go by whats written in the new covenant scriptures its the Messy who should break ties with SMM.

2 COR. 6 [16] And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for YE ARE THE TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. [17] Wherefore come out from among them, and BE YE SEPARATE, saith the Lord, AND TOUCH NOT THE UNCLEAN THING; and I will receive you, [18] And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

This NEW TESTAMENT scripture tells us as believers we are not to touch the unclean thing and to separate ourselves from them that do

ISAIAH 52 [9] Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath REDEEMED Jerusalem. [10] The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the SALVATION of our God. [11] Depart ye, depart ye, GO YE OUT from thence, TOUCH NO UNCLEAN THING; GO YE OUT OF THE MIDST OF HER; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the Lord. [12] For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the Lord will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.

Redeemed. Salvation. Words you would find in the new testament concerning Jesus. And as is always the case, you will find whats being said in the new testament has already been said in the old or prophecied.

LEVITICUS 20 [22] Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. [23] And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. [24] But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD, WHICH HAVE SEPARATED YOU from other people. [25] YE SHALL THEREFORE PUT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CLEAN BEASTS AND UNCLEAN, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean. [26] And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the Lord am holy, and have severed you from other people, THAT YE SHOULD BE MINE.

Be ye separate.

DEUT. 14 [8] And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.

Everywhere theres lots of piggies....

ISAIAH 66 [15] For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. [16] For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many. [17] They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, EATING SWINE'S FLESH, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.

The above scripture is speaking of the “Day of the Lord”. On that day, the fat lady sings. Because that day has not yet arrived, the people who do not want to believe these scriptures cannot claim its for ancient Israel. Theres one God, and His people one. There are not different rules for different people when the Day of the Lord arrives. Id really love to hear why you believe "eating swines flesh" is in that DAY OF THE LORD scripture?

Lets look at Isaiah 66 from another angle to see if the Messy is following the written Word of God. Who sanctifys you?

ISAIAH 66 [15] For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.[16] For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.[17] THEY THAT SANCTIFY THEMSELVES, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, SHALL BE CONSUMED together, saith the LORD.

They that sanctify themselves shall be consumed by fire come the Day of the Lord.

EZEKIEL 20 [12] Moreover also I GAVE THEM MY SABBATHS, TO BE A SIGN between me and them, that they might know THAT I AM THE LORD THAT SANCTIFY THEM.

The sabbath is a sign between God and his people that the “Lord does sanctify them”. So whose following the Word of God. The Messy who is sanctified by God or the sunday go to meetin people who ignore Gods 4th commandment. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever

 

[Chowmah]

Yes, the Messianics keep the Law; so El should owe them, I would guess,

No GE, not so God would owe them but know them

1JOHN2 [3] AND HEREBY WE DO KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.[4] He that saith, i know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him

 

[Chowmah]

I've never heard the expression "Just in Case" used for Messianics...something new to me.

Yeah Freds wife. Its a very new expression. Never heard from the mouth of a Messy but indeed very very very new.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

No GE, not so God would owe them but know them

1JOHN2 [3] AND HEREBY WE DO KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.[4] He that saith, i know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him

GE:

This is typical of the Law, Chowmah, it makes us ALL liars before the holy God. Because there is NNE that "keepeth His Commandments", "NO, NOT ONE!"

Having said that, I do not say we are not OBLIGED to keep the Law of God. No, we must. We must, but we do not; not by far! So we get more guilty the more obliged we get. No wonder Paul said the Law drives us to Christ. Christ who is our only hope in the Day of the LORD.

 

[DixieBoy]

Be ye separate.

DEUT. 14 [8] And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.

These laws were only for the Israelites. Never for the Gentiles.

Deu 14:21 "Do not eat any animal that dies a natural death. You may let the foreigners who live among you eat it, or you may sell it to other foreigners. But you belong to the LORD your God; you are his people. "Do not cook a young sheep or goat in its mother's milk.

Everywhere theres lots of piggies....

ISAIAH 66 [15] For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. [16] For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many. [17] They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, EATING SWINE'S FLESH, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.

The above scripture is speaking of the “Day of the Lord”. On that day, the fat lady sings. Because that day has not yet arrived, the people who do not want to believe these scriptures cannot claim its for ancient Israel. Theres one God, and His people one. There are not different rules for different people when the Day of the Lord arrives. Id really love to hear why you believe "eating swines flesh" is in that DAY OF THE LORD scripture?

What you quoted had to do with food sacrificed to idols. Anything sacrificed to idols should not be eaten.

Isa 65:3 They shamelessly keep on making me angry. They offer pagan sacrifices at sacred gardens and burn incense on pagan altars.

Isa 65:4 At night they go to caves and tombs to consult the spirits of the dead. They eat pork and drink broth made from meat offered in pagan sacrifices.

Isa 66:17 The LORD says, "The end is near for those who purify themselves for pagan worship, who go in procession to sacred gardens, and who eat pork and mice and other disgusting foods.

Act 15:20 Instead, we should send a letter telling them only the things they should not do: Don't eat food that has been given to idols. This makes the food unclean. Don't be involved in sexual sin. Don't eat meat from animals that have been strangled or any meat that still has the blood in it.

 

[Chowmah]

Isa 66:17 The LORD says, "The end is near for those who purify themselves for pagan worship, who go in procession to sacred gardens, and who eat pork and mice and other disgusting foods.

Hi DixieBoy
What denomination wrote the book your quoting from.

ISAIAH 66 [17] They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, EATING SWINE'S FLESH, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.

Ya know theres a reason they left "sanctify themselves" out of their book

Who do you suppose that the"one tree in the midst" is speaking of? The one they are hiding behind? Why isnt it doin them any good?

MATT.7 [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: