Also need to hold to sound doctrine!Pictured below is the Pentecostal Holiness farmer I would work for in the hay field... Dallas would shout at work, shout in the hay field, and shout in church. He would also speak in tongues and run the aisles. He and his wife would operate a dairy farm and he would also work at the local ammunition plant. A very large soul his shouting would ring through the building. In the altar services he would kneel behind me in prayer and tears would roll off his cheek and onto my shoulders. A wonderfully large soul. Along with Dallas there were many others like him who would let the praises roll during church service. During the altar service old Evans Linkous used to weep like a baby. And if he were to look back to catch the amazed look in my eye he would weep, "The Holy Ghost! The Holy Ghost!" And point to all the souls being blessed around the altar. After I experienced these things for myself the people would make a fuss, or in the words of the Apostle Paul, glorify God in me. And I acquired these things myself in like methods of the GC Rankin testimony in earlier posts.
Dallas.... Jesus in the family! What a happy home!
You can hear Dallas shouting in the background. Dallas, Gertrude, and Pastor Vaught have all went to glory.
And the old Merrimac Pentecostal Holiness church. I have never heard such singing , preaching, and shouting anywhere else in my entire life! And there was no room for cold ego in the hearts of these folks.
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Methodism, Sanctification, and Dangerous Doctrine
- Thread starter rockytopva
- Start date
Quoting George Clark Rankin....
During these forty-five long years, with their alternations of sunshine and shadow, daylight and darkness, success and failure, rejoicing and weeping, fears within and fightings without, I have never ceased to thank God for that autumnal day in the long ago when my name was registered in the Lamb's Book of Life. - GeorgeClarkRankin Testimony
When revival is a success we all live in wonderful life. In George Clark Rankin's time I can read of the Methodist church in good state in the Civil War era. The Pentecostal Holiness church I mentioned was best in the hands of the old WW2 generation. I can see through the generations that the church can go from hot to cold with the same doctrine, but in the hands of a different generation. This is why I do not reccomend any particular denomination.
No need, then, of any further sanctification, once Born Again?
I remember a quote from Saint Augustine that went, "Mans extremity is Gods opportunity." But as far as I am concerned mans extremity is God's big headache!
And our church singing the Pentecostal Holiness favorite, complete with shouting, “I’ll Fly Away!” There were times of revival in which I would anticipate the heavens opening and calling us all away!
No need of a second act of grace!
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Nope, we are all fully glorified at the moment of our salvation.
(Ask a silly question... )
We are a work of clay being formed in the Potter’s hands from the moment we are born until the day we arrive perfected in glory ... always according to the invisible plan of an omnipotent God with the goal of our good and His glory. What we are not is a hierarchy of Children forming a greater and lesser Body of Christ. Perfection lies in Christ and not in us.
The Apostle Paul told an established church which was in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ..Nope, we are all fully glorified at the moment of our salvation.
(Ask a silly question... )
We are a work of clay being formed in the Potter’s hands from the moment we are born until the day we arrive perfected in glory ... always according to the invisible plan of an omnipotent God with the goal of our good and His glory. What we are not is a hierarchy of Children forming a greater and lesser Body of Christ. Perfection lies in Christ and not in us.
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: - 1 Thessalonians 4:3
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
This is pure salvation by works. Including a witchcraft-type Chant, you recite to move God to save you, based on a misunderstanding of Romans 10:9.From the devotionals of William Seymour...
1. The Entrance Gate- Justification - Faith to enter in.
2. The Altar - Salvation- if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. - Roman's 10:9 - Christ is our sacrifice!
3. The Laver - The clean effects of sanctification.
4. Table of Showbread – Daily into the word of God
5. Light at the Lightstand - Faith, hope, charity, joy, grace, love, warmth, etc. With sanctification came a sweet spirit!
6. The Golden Incense Altar - Prayer and Praise meetings.
7. The Holy of Holies - The Shekinah Glory and Baptism of the Holy Ghost.
And also from the devotions of William Seymour... The Ordinances of the Azusa Street Mission were Basically Seven….
Justification by faith – We are saved, or justified, by simple faith in Christ.
Sanctification by faith - As a second definite work of grace upon the heart and evidenced by the sweet spirit of Christ in the experience!
Power - The baptism in the Holy Ghost is a gift of power upon the sanctified life, anointing it in service and in work, with the speaking in tongues as one of the ‘signs following’ in the baptized believer along with casting out devils, healing the sick and the fruits of the Spirit accompanying the signs.
Marriage – As a holy union between a man and a woman.
Water Baptism – On those who have reached the age of accountability
Communion - “We believe in the ordinance of the Lord’s supper as instituted by Jesus and followed by the apostles, and teach that it should be frequently observed in holy reverence.”
Foot Washing - “We believe in feet washing as an ordinance, as it was established by our Master before the Lord’s supper, according to John 13:4-18, and believe it was practiced by the Apostles and disciples through the First Century” (1 Tim. 5:10).
The Methods to the Fullness of the Spirit of God were Basically Seven....
1. Justification - Faith to enter in
2. Salvation - Christ is our sacrifice
3. Sanctification - "Sanctification makes us clean on the inside." - William Seymour
4. Bible Reading - At the Table of Shewbread
5. Spiritual Fruit - At the Lampstand
6. Prayer and Praise meetings - At the Altar of Golden Incense
7. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit - In the Holy of Holies
And in William Seymours own handwriting....
As far as tongues William Seymour says that if people weren’t expressing the I Corinthians 13 kind of love, then, “I care not how many tongues you may have, you have not the baptism with the Holy Spirit.” William Seymour also warned that, “Whenever the doctrine of the baptism in the Holy Ghost will only be known as the evidence of speaking in tongues, that work will be an open door for witches and spiritualist and free loveism. That work will suffer because all kinds of spirits can come in.”
And in the videos I have posted of worship in my Pentecostal Holiness church there is that 1 Corinthians 13 kind of love.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Even love becomes a work in Churches based on free will.And also from the devotions of William Seymour... The Ordinances of the Azusa Street Mission were Basically Seven….
Justification by faith – We are saved, or justified, by simple faith in Christ.
Sanctification by faith - As a second definite work of grace upon the heart and evidenced by the sweet spirit of Christ in the experience!
Power - The baptism in the Holy Ghost is a gift of power upon the sanctified life, anointing it in service and in work, with the speaking in tongues as one of the ‘signs following’ in the baptized believer along with casting out devils, healing the sick and the fruits of the Spirit accompanying the signs.
Marriage – As a holy union between a man and a woman.
Water Baptism – On those who have reached the age of accountability
Communion - “We believe in the ordinance of the Lord’s supper as instituted by Jesus and followed by the apostles, and teach that it should be frequently observed in holy reverence.”
Foot Washing - “We believe in feet washing as an ordinance, as it was established by our Master before the Lord’s supper, according to John 13:4-18, and believe it was practiced by the Apostles and disciples through the First Century” (1 Tim. 5:10).
The Methods to the Fullness of the Spirit of God were Basically Seven....
1. Justification - Faith to enter in
2. Salvation - Christ is our sacrifice
3. Sanctification - "Sanctification makes us clean on the inside." - William Seymour
4. Bible Reading - At the Table of Shewbread
5. Spiritual Fruit - At the Lampstand
6. Prayer and Praise meetings - At the Altar of Golden Incense
7. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit - In the Holy of Holies
And in William Seymours own handwriting....
As far as tongues William Seymour says that if people weren’t expressing the I Corinthians 13 kind of love, then, “I care not how many tongues you may have, you have not the baptism with the Holy Spirit.” William Seymour also warned that, “Whenever the doctrine of the baptism in the Holy Ghost will only be known as the evidence of speaking in tongues, that work will be an open door for witches and spiritualist and free loveism. That work will suffer because all kinds of spirits can come in.”
And in the videos I have posted of worship in my Pentecostal Holiness church there is that 1 Corinthians 13 kind of love.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
If all believers have the Holy Spirit, what spirit do Pentecostals have that believers don't have? We know WM Seymour (American Pentecostalism founder) was a first-generation emancipated slave with a voodoo background. And that he thought voodoo tongues were the same as those in Acts. How can it not be possible that Pentecostalism is a hybrid movement of Voodoo and Wesly Methodism?
I would make sure such allegations were true before uttering them!
There are six things that the LORD strongly dislikes, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.- Proverbs 6:16-19
I have read much of Seymour’s stuff and have never read of any hints of such allegations. If you have then please quote him, as he has written much, and give a righteous account of where he was wrong.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
It seems suspect that if all believers have the Holy Spirit, that Pentecostals would have another spirit unknown to scripture. Given Seymour's background, something related to voodoo seems logically connected.
Two wonderful Pentecostal Holiness choir favorites. Especially in earlier days, it was if as though the heavens would open and take us all away!
Former Southern Baptist head, Charles Stanley, with all his success as pastor of a megachurch and a major television personality, never forgot his Pentecostal Holiness roots and was raised in the spirit of this devotional. - Pastor Charles Stanley, Retouching His Pentecostal Roots No voodoo here!
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Just a clarification here, about tongues: there is no case in the Bible, nor is a case even countenanced, of a man not understanding his own speech:
Seymour acknowledging the possibilities of evil.... As far as tongues William Seymour says that if people weren’t expressing the I Corinthians 13 kind of love, then, “I care not how many tongues you may have, you have not the baptism with the Holy Spirit.” William Seymour also warned that, “Whenever the doctrine of the baptism in the Holy Ghost will only be known as the evidence of speaking in tongues, that work will be an open door for witches and spiritualist and free loveism. That work will suffer because all kinds of spirits can come in.”
The Pentecostal Holiness church was also helped founded by a Baptist minister, Benjamin Hardin Irwin who wrote, "We stand on Christ the solid rock," he wrote, "justified, cleansed through the blood, consecrated, baptized with the Holy Ghost and fire; and praise the Lord our God that the outcome is a definite work of sanctification and holiness as well as a progressive work.” - http://bicarchives.messiah.edu/files/Documents18/1981-2-december_1981.pdf
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
He doesn't have a good reputation among Evangelicals. And if He believed Pentecostalism true, how did he end up a quasi-Baptist.
I was born into a military family. My mother was reared Pentecostal Holiness and my dad was reared Roman Catholic. I was born in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. Mom and dad obviously quit going to church after being married in a Catholic ceremony. When I was young they moved to Michigan.
One Sunday, while riding my bike in the early AM a church bus stopped and the driver yelled at me that I needed to be in church. The man's name was Rod Moxely and the church was called the Fellowship Baptist (GARBC Northern Baptist) church in Whitmore Lake, Michigan. The whole family ended up getting saved, the church expands, and attendance skyrockets from 80 to over 400. During this time as a teenager I would go on youth trips where the Holy Spirit would touch my heart. I went up for salvation many times as it always produced a spiritual sensation joyful and clean. We did have a revival at that time in which an evangelist really convicted the hearts and people would pray earnestly in the prayer rooms after church. I must say the Baptist had a whole lot going on for the children, lots of fun events that left me with a spiritually clean feeling every time and very challenged. All of the events were decent and well organized. And I have a video of a revival from the 1970's in that Baptist church that I have posted below. In researching the evangelist he declares himself a graduate from Asbury College so I would imagine he is familiar with the Wesleyan movement, but he mentioned nothing about dogma so I didn't know.
All I knew growing up was the Baptist church. I was convinced very young that the Baptist doctrine was the most superior. I am afraid I was rude to fellow Catholics and honestly believed that speaking of tongues was of the devil which had its origins in witchcraft and African Voodoo. The only thing I knew of Methodism was that they did not believe in drinking or playing cards, so I was not interested.
It came to pass that Rod Moxely passed away, the church experienced political trouble and the deacons would end up getting a guy nobody liked. So, the attendance plummeted, the congregation fell into natural things, and I would spend the rest of my teenage years working at a restaurant.
After graduating high school I decided to stay the summer with my Grandmother here in Virginia. I would get a job washing dishes in the morning and would put up hay in the evening/afternoon. There I began to get a taste of a totally different lifestyle. The people would work hard Monday-Friday, go to town on Saturday morning, some kind of constructive activity Saturday afternoon, and we had Saturday night prayer time at the church during the nights. Sundays were a day that the people would go to church, they would not work on Sundays, and return to church Sunday night There were also blue laws keeping places of businesses closed on Sunday. You could set your watch on their righteous routines, which I would later discover were Methodist ways handed down from the mid-1700's. The area seemed to fit the old Tina Turner song Nutbush City Limits.
That summer I would put up hay with a QC analyst who kept the joy of the Lord alive in his heart all his years. He would shout in church, shout at home, and shout out in the hay field. I have never seen such joy in all my life. Not only was there a joy, but there was a richness in love as well. The people would really let you know that they loved you. In the old TV show the Waltons the family would talk to one another before going to bed. I have since learned that this was because the houses were so small. But despite the houses being small the people lived decently and in great love, joy, and peace.
So I fell in with them. I would go to the revivals and prayer meetings and live among the people. The services at the Pentecostal Holiness church were at this time very lively. People would shout, run the aisles, fall out in the Spirit, speak in tongues, and then wait for an interpretation. They would have prolonged altar services and would crowd the petitioners and encourage them to tarry and wait upon the Lord. There were times that the old guys would sit back in the pews weeping, and if they made eye contact they would declare, as souls around the altar fell out in the Spirit, "The Holy Ghost! The Holy Ghost!" There were souls who would fall out in the Spirit and would have to be carried out of church.
At the end of that summer we had a good revival in which the Lord seemed there in a mighty way. On reading the book, "Run Baby Run,"; by Nikki Cruise, I felt a voice telling me to put the book down. I paused, and then continued again to read. The voice said again, "Put the book down." I slept in my Grandmothers living room on an old fold away cot by the open living room door. The Katydids seemed to be singing very loud that night. There in my Grandmothers clean linens I heard the Spirit speak again, "Where is all the stress, worry and hatred?" In which, upon examining my heart, there was nothing there but pure beauty. I thought to myself. "Oh my! I got exactly what those people got!"
In the Pentecostal Holiness church most ministers I know these days are getting their degrees from Liberty University, a ministry of the Thomas Road Baptist Church. The Baptist and Pentecostal Holiness church are not that far apart as being Christians. They will draw the line on issues of speaking in tongues, but do not war over it. I myself will occasionally visit Baptist churches but do not talk issues with them. Saint Ambrose once said, "When in Rome do as the Romans!" I visit denominational churches and behave myself accordingly. Which I imagine Charles Stanley did as well.
So... Where to go to church in 2021? I would say that 90% of the Pentecostal Holiness have lost touch with the spirit that once made them great. And, going out of the Spirit into the flesh is never a good thing. I have visited Auburn Baptist this year, The Dwelling Place (non-denominational), but have not visited the Pentecostal Holiness church as I am no fan of the drive-in church service.