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Methodism, Sanctification, and Dangerous Doctrine

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
I was born into a military family. My mother was reared Pentecostal Holiness and my dad was reared Roman Catholic. I was born in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. Mom and dad obviously quit going to church after being married in a Catholic ceremony. When I was young they moved to Michigan.

One Sunday, while riding my bike in the early AM a church bus stopped and the driver yelled at me that I needed to be in church. The man's name was Rod Moxely and the church was called the Fellowship Baptist (GARBC Northern Baptist) church in Whitmore Lake, Michigan. The whole family ended up getting saved, the church expands, and attendance skyrockets from 80 to over 400. During this time as a teenager I would go on youth trips where the Holy Spirit would touch my heart. I went up for salvation many times as it always produced a spiritual sensation joyful and clean. We did have a revival at that time in which an evangelist really convicted the hearts and people would pray earnestly in the prayer rooms after church. I must say the Baptist had a whole lot going on for the children, lots of fun events that left me with a spiritually clean feeling every time and very challenged. All of the events were decent and well organized. And I have a video of a revival from the 1970's in that Baptist church that I have posted below. In researching the evangelist he declares himself a graduate from Asbury College so I would imagine he is familiar with the Wesleyan movement, but he mentioned nothing about dogma so I didn't know.


All I knew growing up was the Baptist church. I was convinced very young that the Baptist doctrine was the most superior. I am afraid I was rude to fellow Catholics and honestly believed that speaking of tongues was of the devil which had its origins in witchcraft and African Voodoo. The only thing I knew of Methodism was that they did not believe in drinking or playing cards, so I was not interested.

It came to pass that Rod Moxely passed away, the church experienced political trouble and the deacons would end up getting a guy nobody liked. So, the attendance plummeted, the congregation fell into natural things, and I would spend the rest of my teenage years working at a restaurant.

After graduating high school I decided to stay the summer with my Grandmother here in Virginia. I would get a job washing dishes in the morning and would put up hay in the evening/afternoon. There I began to get a taste of a totally different lifestyle. The people would work hard Monday-Friday, go to town on Saturday morning, some kind of constructive activity Saturday afternoon, and we had Saturday night prayer time at the church during the nights. Sundays were a day that the people would go to church, they would not work on Sundays, and return to church Sunday night There were also blue laws keeping places of businesses closed on Sunday. You could set your watch on their righteous routines, which I would later discover were Methodist ways handed down from the mid-1700's. The area seemed to fit the old Tina Turner song Nutbush City Limits.

That summer I would put up hay with a QC analyst who kept the joy of the Lord alive in his heart all his years. He would shout in church, shout at home, and shout out in the hay field. I have never seen such joy in all my life. Not only was there a joy, but there was a richness in love as well. The people would really let you know that they loved you. In the old TV show the Waltons the family would talk to one another before going to bed. I have since learned that this was because the houses were so small. But despite the houses being small the people lived decently and in great love, joy, and peace.
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So I fell in with them. I would go to the revivals and prayer meetings and live among the people. The services at the Pentecostal Holiness church were at this time very lively. People would shout, run the aisles, fall out in the Spirit, speak in tongues, and then wait for an interpretation. They would have prolonged altar services and would crowd the petitioners and encourage them to tarry and wait upon the Lord. There were times that the old guys would sit back in the pews weeping, and if they made eye contact they would declare, as souls around the altar fell out in the Spirit, "The Holy Ghost! The Holy Ghost!" There were souls who would fall out in the Spirit and would have to be carried out of church.

At the end of that summer we had a good revival in which the Lord seemed there in a mighty way. On reading the book, "Run Baby Run,"; by Nikki Cruise, I felt a voice telling me to put the book down. I paused, and then continued again to read. The voice said again, "Put the book down." I slept in my Grandmothers living room on an old fold away cot by the open living room door. The Katydids seemed to be singing very loud that night. There in my Grandmothers clean linens I heard the Spirit speak again, "Where is all the stress, worry and hatred?" In which, upon examining my heart, there was nothing there but pure beauty. I thought to myself. "Oh my! I got exactly what those people got!"

In the Pentecostal Holiness church most ministers I know these days are getting their degrees from Liberty University, a ministry of the Thomas Road Baptist Church. The Baptist and Pentecostal Holiness church are not that far apart as being Christians. They will draw the line on issues of speaking in tongues, but do not war over it. I myself will occasionally visit Baptist churches but do not talk issues with them. Saint Ambrose once said, "When in Rome do as the Romans!" I visit denominational churches and behave myself accordingly. Which I imagine Charles Stanley did as well.
My alarm bells go off with your "church" involvement. Many shower you with love until you speak the truth and reveal their wickedness. My family was GARBC and loved me like no other until I refused to go to Vietnam. It made them look bad especially after the war ended when the truth came out and they had lots of crow to choke down. All but one disowned me, the only one to actually fight on the battlefield.
 

rockytopva

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
It is important, for the sake of spirituality, that we divide the man into three parts… Physical, Spiritual, and Intellectual. If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2) And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma, the sun is the visible form of E/c2
Mental E/c2 - Our thinking can produce creativeness, light, and good things
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

The Natural E/c2 in the form of mass produces a gravity that attracts other objects
The Intellectual E/c2 produces a gravity that draws us to study
The Spiritual E/c2 also has a gravity that draws and makes religion attractive

Just Because....
  1. Natural E/c2 - You were once upon a time physically fit does not mean you are so now.
  2. Intellectual E/c2 - You were once intelligent does not mean you are so now.
  3. Spiritual E/c2 - You were once filled with the Holy Spirit does not mean you are so now.
The light and the energy must be maintained and updated on a daily basis.

Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God. - Isaiah 50:10

And to imagine spiritual three extremes....

Light - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)
Flesh - I have heard so akin to the devil it is hard to discern between the two
Darkness z (absolute zero, laziness, coldness) / d (darkness, fear, despair, greed, sorrow)

I am into a movement as long as an appropriate light shines through the believer. I find light, flesh, and darkness can accompany the same mental doctrine. In which case it is important to have good leaders in a church, in which we had at our Pentecostal Holiness church here...

 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If all believers have the Holy Spirit, what spirit do Pentecostals have that believers don't have? We know WM Seymour (American Pentecostalism founder) was a first-generation emancipated slave with a voodoo background. And that he thought voodoo tongues were the same as those in Acts. How can it not be possible that Pentecostalism is a hybrid movement of Voodoo and Wesly Methodism?
Why is it that so much heresy and false teachings in the church today are coming forth from those claiming to have deeper Holy Spirit experiences, as in WoF and name it and grab it?
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
"The evidence of contemporary christian life is such that god, if he ever existed, must surely be dead." said Bertrand Russel.

"Amen, to that" said everyone raised under a Modern Methodist or Presbyterian or Catholic church that read the quote by Bertrand Russel.

The greatest evidence AGAINST the truth of the Gospel is the spirit of ICHABOD that permeates our sad, old, tired mostly empty churches reminiscing about the faded glories of yesteryear ... all of whom only get excited about condemning anything that might possibly hint at "Pentacostalism".
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Why is it that so much heresy and false teachings in the church today are coming forth from those claiming to have deeper Holy Spirit experiences, as in WoF and name it and grab it?
Why is it that those claiming to have true Biblical teaching claim only shallow Holy Spirit experiences?
That is more concerning given what I read in the Gospels and Acts and the Apostolic Letters.
Did the Holy Spirit leave with the death of the last apostle?
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Why is it that those claiming to have true Biblical teaching claim only shallow Holy Spirit experiences?
That is more concerning given what I read in the Gospels and Acts and the Apostolic Letters.
Did the Holy Spirit leave with the death of the last apostle?
No, but the Apostles and Prophets did!
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Why is it that so much heresy and false teachings in the church today are coming forth from those claiming to have deeper Holy Spirit experiences, as in WoF and name it and grab it?

Who told YOU that you were elect and chosen again? Maybe you can get a stamp from the holy spirit clerk
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The Holy Spirit testified and witnessed in my spirit am saved!

Wait a minute, See here is an example of not having your story straight.

I heard the FATHER DRAWS, I heard the SON DRAWS....... Show me where it says the HOLY SPIRIT DRAWS.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
What scripture says that?
I have never met a credible Apostle claimant, but where does scripture state that the Holy Spirit gives gifts as He pleases, EXCEPT PROPHECY?
Great question. I cannot recall a passage. Let's see if others have scripture.
 
Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

I read the book excerpts in the beginning of this topic and they where very interesting but what jumped out at me is that scripture isn't mentioned anywhere.
It seems this conversation has broken down to a discussion of tongues?. I was born in a charismatic church myself and at times to my own shame attempted tongues. This doesn't mean that God can't use tongues, just that what I tried was wrong and I repent and regret my attempts. With that said, I have seen enough of them to conclude (for myself) that I am not the only person that needs to repent of them. They are no more beneficial than reading the Word for enlightenment and nobody ever speaks in a human tongue but rather it's an "angelic" tongue. If you had someone speak tongues and then had two different interpreters interpret, where they can't hear what the other is saying, you would get two different interpretations or something vague and useless. I have been the subject of tongues before and when interpreted I didn't apply at all to me. The price for prophesying falsely in the old testament was death, and I dare not speak for God unless I am truly, beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind, being told to. If your Russian speaking in Angelic tongues the syntax will be Russian, if Hispanic it'll be Hispanic, English, English, and so forth making it sound like it's contrived. Then there's the fact that when Peter and the other Galileans spoke with tongues on the Pentecost it was to people who heard them in their own language and who where jewish proselytes and probably knew many languages, so it definitely was for a sign and not for necessity. There are people who would say that they all spoke one tongue (angelic) but the proselytes interpreted them or heard them in their language so God actually changed the way they heard it, but what gets me is the one mention of angelic tongues isn't even in the chapter describing tongues, and the only tongue that seems seem to be used today is an angelic one… then what about healing; no one picked out for healing in the New Testament walked away with the answer "I'm sorry you weren't healed, you must not of had enough faith…" One of my favorite verses is Mark 9:24 Lord I believe help my unbelief! Healing isn't just for the strong in faith. It's all subjective when you get away from the scripture, so maybe we can start bringing some scripture to the table and talk about that[emoji3]

Thank goodness I'm not overcome by the Holy Spirit when I'm driving or at work, that could be disastrous[emoji6], but I have had a heightened sense of Him in both these places, I guess there is a place for everything

BTW the song is awesome ![emoji41]
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
What further revelations would God give to us in addition to the canon books then?
What new revelation was given to us in Jonah's prophecy to Nineveh?

What new revelation was given to us by the four daughters of Phillip the evangelist?
Acts of the Apostles 21:7-14 [NASB]
7 When we had finished the voyage from Tyre, we arrived at Ptolemais, and after greeting the brethren, we stayed with them for a day. 8 On the next day we left and came to Caesarea, and entering the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, we stayed with him. 9 Now this man had four virgin daughters who were prophetesses. 10 As we were staying there for some days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11 And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, "This is what the Holy Spirit says: 'In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.'" 12 When we had heard this, we as well as the local residents [began] begging him not to go up to Jerusalem. 13 Then Paul answered, "What are you doing, weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be bound, but even to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus." 14 And since he would not be persuaded, we fell silent, remarking, "The will of the Lord be done!"​

Here is what God wrote to me ...
1 Corinthians 12:4-11 [NKJV] 4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit [of all]: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another [different] kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

I just what to see the verse where God changed His mind about how the Holy Spirit works and how His Church works. Until then, I continue to trust that God's word is as unchanging as His character.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Wait a minute, See here is an example of not having your story straight.

I heard the FATHER DRAWS, I heard the SON DRAWS....... Show me where it says the HOLY SPIRIT DRAWS.
He testifies and witnesses to us now are saved!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
What new revelation was given to us in Jonah's prophecy to Nineveh?

What new revelation was given to us by the four daughters of Phillip the evangelist?
Acts of the Apostles 21:7-14 [NASB]
7 When we had finished the voyage from Tyre, we arrived at Ptolemais, and after greeting the brethren, we stayed with them for a day. 8 On the next day we left and came to Caesarea, and entering the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, we stayed with him. 9 Now this man had four virgin daughters who were prophetesses. 10 As we were staying there for some days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11 And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, "This is what the Holy Spirit says: 'In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.'" 12 When we had heard this, we as well as the local residents [began] begging him not to go up to Jerusalem. 13 Then Paul answered, "What are you doing, weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be bound, but even to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus." 14 And since he would not be persuaded, we fell silent, remarking, "The will of the Lord be done!"​

Here is what God wrote to me ...
1 Corinthians 12:4-11 [NKJV] 4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit [of all]: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another [different] kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

I just what to see the verse where God changed His mind about how the Holy Spirit works and how His Church works. Until then, I continue to trust that God's word is as unchanging as His character.
Apostolic Era was transition from old to new Covenant, and God spoke to us ALL of His revelation thru the canon books!
 
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