Methodist and women pastors

[annsni]

Scripture does support women pastors. :thumbs:

OK - Calling it. Put your cards on the table.

 

[trustitl]

Exactly.:thumbsup: Men likewise don't need to be "elders" to use their gifts, they just want to be in charge. If they really wanted to be serving others they wouldn't be wasting their time pushing a system and would just get to work.

You are right that they don't need to be elders to use their gifts and there may be men who "just want to be in charge", but that does not negate the fact that God's design from creation was for the woman to submit to the man. When a woman is submitted to her man she is in line with God's order just like when children are in obedience to their parents or a citizen is under the authority of the state.

There are parents who just "want to be in charge", as a well as police men. However, that does not do anything to the created order.

The system you are not liking was established at creation by the creator.

 

[steaver]

Originally Posted by Alive in Christ
Scripture does support women pastors. :thumbs:

I have been studying scripture for eleven years now and I have yet to come across anything declaring it's ok for a woman to have authority over the man or men. The office of pastor is a position of authority and unless you have an all girl congregation it will include having authority over men.

What scripture are you thinking of? Remember, the scripture must speak of authority over men in the church. Not teaching or preaching. Both men and women may teach and preach in some manners. Pastors and Elders are leaders having authority on dirrectional decisions, leadership. We know how Eve lead Adam. This is why part of the curse is a woman's desire to rule over the man. If sin had not entered, women would be very content in the role God gave them. But because of sin, they must struggle with the desire to be in charge. A woman giving in to the desire to be in charge is sin just like giving in to any other desire God has defined as sin.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Annsni...

"OK - Calling it. Put your cards on the table."

The Assemblies of God have already put the cards on the table.

Read the whole thing. It shouldnt take more than 15 minutes.

Here it is...

http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_downloads/pp_4191_women_ministry.pdf



:godisgood:

 

[ray Marshall]

Nowhere is it found that women cannot preach the gospel. All Christians are called to preach the gospel. What I believe you are thinking is where it calls bishops or pastors to be men. While it is true that pastors are preachers, not all preachers are pastors. There is a distinction.

God Bless! :thumbsup:

I think I recall somewhere in the Bible about a woman damed 'Deborah, or something simular teaching because the men would not.

 

[annsni]

Annsni...



The Assemblies of God have already put the cards on the table.

Read the whole thing. It shouldnt take more than 15 minutes.

Here it is...

http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_downloads/pp_4191_women_ministry.pdf



:godisgood:

OK - Some points:

Miriam and Huldah were prophets. Yes, prophets can be women. We see that in 1 Corinthians 11, women can prophesy. There's no argument on that. But that's not a pastor.

Deborah was a judge. She led an army. That's a civil position - not a spiritual one. Yes, she was also a prophet but that does not mean that she was a shepherd over a local flock.

Dorcas served others, as we all are called to do. Philip's daughters were prophets - as I've shown is Biblical.

Euodia and Syntyche helped to spread the Gospel as we all are called to do.

Priscilla and her husband taught Apollos together - in private.

Phoebe was a "diakonos" which means servant. There is no evidence anywhere that she had any authority or teaching position over men.

With all of these examples, we see that women play an important role in God's kingdom. However, there are boundaries to the role they play. But in reading the rest of the paper, it all falls apart because of their premise that because women served and prophesied, we must then interpret all of the rest of the clear instructions for women not to teach or have authority over men, or that pastors are to be the husband of one wife must not say what it's seeming to say. That's not proper study of Scripture. Since not one of the women in the Bible save for Deborah have any authority over men or are shown to be teaching men apart from Priscilla teaching with her husband one single man in private, we cannot come to the conclusion that God wants women to be in authority over men. It's just not there.

I'm sorry, but the AOG is in great error in this interpretation of Scripture.

 

[annsni]

I think I recall somewhere in the Bible about a woman damed 'Deborah, or something simular teaching because the men would not.

Umm - no. Deborah was a judge. You might want to read the Bible again to see the story.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ray Marshall: I think I recall somewhere in the Bible about a woman named 'Deborah, or something similar teaching because the men would not.

HP: There is a distinction between a Judge and those God sets up as the authority in His Church is there not? Was there not a women named Miriam that God spoke to just the same as He did to Moses (or at least she thought He did) who obviously had no trouble speaking and could dance and play a timbrel as well in front of people? God certainly had somewhat to say to her.

I certainly believe God can set up women to teach under certain situations, especially if all the men are unwilling and will not take the leadership positions they should, but I would think that to be a rare exception and certainly not something to be practiced under normal circumstances in light of the numerous passages that speak to the contrary.

Let the dish towels fly! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[annsni]

HP: There is a distinction between a Judge and those God sets up as the authority in His Church is there not? Was there not a women named Miriam that God spoke to just the same as He did to Moses (or at least she thought He did) who obviously had no trouble speaking and could dance and play a timbrel as well in front of people? God certainly had somewhat to say to her.

I certainly believe God can set up women to teach under certain situations, especially if all the men are unwilling and will not take the leadership positions they should, but I would think that to be a rare exception and certainly not something to be practiced under normal circumstances in light of the numerous passages that speak to the contrary.

Let the dish towels fly! :smilewinkgrin:

All I can say is ... note what God says about this time of Deborah's leading:

Judges 4

1 After Ehud died, the Israelites once again did evil in the eyes of the LORD. 2 So the LORD sold them into the hands of Jabin, a king of Canaan, who reigned in Hazor. The commander of his army was Sisera, who lived in Harosheth Haggoyim. 3 Because he had nine hundred iron chariots and had cruelly oppressed the Israelites for twenty years, they cried to the LORD for help. 4 Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading [a] Israel at that time.

So, is this what we are looking to emulate? Doing evil in the sight of the Lord, being sold into the hands of the enemy and then being led by a woman? I don't think that's an ideal situation - do you?

 

[Jerome]

I Cor 16:16 Paul instructs the church to submit to "every one that helpeth with us, and laboureth."

Of course, no women helped or laboured with Paul, right?

 

[annsni]

I Cor 16:16 Paul instructs the church to submit to "every one that helpeth with us, and laboureth."

Of course, no women helped or laboured with Paul, right?

Of course they did. This agrees with the verse in Ephesians 5:21 that says "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ."

Your point?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: I don't think that's an ideal situation - do you?

HP: Excellent point. :thumbsup:

I think we all would agree though, God bless Deborah! What a woman! What a leader for a bunch of half hearted men! :applause:

 

[Jerome]

A blast from the past:
"It is to be noted, that we do hold many things to be divine law, which are not expressly contained in the divine law (to wit in the Holy Scripture) neither may they evidently be deduced from thence: as for example, not to ordaine a woman to be priest," ---John Major, tutor to John Knox

 

[Alive in Christ]

Annsni,

* Regaring Phoebe and "Diakonos''....that word carries with it the idea of being the "leader" regarding the ministry. The "leader" is generally the one in charge, or in authority.

As the paper indicates, the same word is used regarding Jesus Christ, Thyicus, Epaphras, Timothy, and Paul himself.


* And Junia was an apostle. That would pretty much include being in authority.


* Priscilla was always mentioned 1st because it was common to mention the leader of a group or partnership 1st. Aquilla, her husband, assisted her in the ministry.


* And again, the automatic "pushing down" of women into a submissive role completely contradicts the New Covenant truth that in Christ there is no more "Jew nor Greek, neither bond nor free, nor male nor female, for we are all now one in Christ."



Dont misunderstand, I'm not some kind of "womens libber",..(imagine that, a man saying that to a woman!) :laugh: ...but I have heard these same arguments before and have prayerfully come to the conclusion that they make sense, and come across to me as quite convincing.

The only personal experience I have had with this was several years ago when I fellowshipped at a non Baptist evangelical church for a couple of years that had co-pastors.

One was a man. The other was a woman.

It worked wonderfully. No problems at all. No conflicts at all. No power trips from either of them.


:godisgood:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Jerome...

(bolding mine)

"A blast from the past:
"It is to be noted, that we do hold many things to be divine law, which are not expressly contained in the divine law (to wit in the Holy Scripture), neither may they evidently be deduced from thence: as for example, not to ordaine a woman to be priest," ---John Major, tutor to John Knox"

Interesting indeed.


:godisgood:

 

[trustitl]

Dont misunderstand, I'm not some kind of "womens libber",..(imagine that, a man saying that to a woman!) :laugh: ...but I have heard these same arguments before and have prayerfully come to the conclusion that they make sense, and come across to me as quite convincing.

The only personal experience I have had with this was several years ago when I fellowshipped at a non Baptist evangelical church for a couple of years that had co-pastors.

One was a man. The other was a woman.

It worked wonderfully. No problems at all. No conflicts at all. No power trips from either of them.:godisgood:

Truth is not determined by our experience. This is very dangerous and is the source of much deception.

 

[steaver]

Dont misunderstand, I'm not some kind of "womens libber",..(imagine that, a man saying that to a woman!) :laugh: ...but I have heard these same arguments before and have prayerfully come to the conclusion that they make sense, and come across to me as quite convincing.

Christians "prayerfully" come to conclusions about many topics. You can practice whatever you will. We all have to prayerfully and rightly divided the word of truth. In the end, the fire will judge our doctrines and we will all then be truly in one accord.

I have studied this issue of women pastors and find (in my prayerfull considerations) that the AoG paper does not rightly divide the word of truth. The Refiner's fire will judge my position and how I have taught others. I can only press towards humbleness and submisiveness when studying and coming to my conclusions. May the fire then refine any misguided ways.

I believe the bible as a whole is pretty expressive that God has ordained an order between the sexes. Not that one is superior over the other. God is a God of order and makes it very clear what that order is to be for success.

God Bless! :thumbsup:

 

[Jerome]

A voice from the past:

"Of the second sort are the hours appointed for public prayers, sermons, and sacraments; quietness and silence under sermons; the singing of hymns; the places appointed for these services, and the days fixed for the celebration of the Lord's supper; the prohibition of Paul, that women should not teach in the Church, and the like; . . .
. . . these things are not necessary to salvation, and ought to be applied to the edification of the Church, with a variety suitable to the manners of each age and nation, therefore, as the benefit of the Church shall require, it will be right to change and abolish former regulations, and to institute new ones. I grant, indeed, that we ought not to resort to innovation rashly or frequently, or for trivial causes. But charity will best decide what will injure or edify, and if we submit to the dictates of charity, all will be well.
. . . these are not fixed and perpetual laws by which we are bound, but external aids for human infirmity, which though we do not need, yet we all use, because we are under obligations to each other to cherish mutual charity between us. This may be observed in the examples already mentioned. What! does religion consist in a woman's veil, so that it would be criminal for her to walk out with her face uncovered? Is the solemn decree respecting her silence such as cannot be violated without a capital offence? Is there any mystery in kneeling, or in the interment of a dead body, which cannot be omitted without sin ? Certainly not; . . . it is sometimes as proper for her to speak, as at other times to be silent. . . . Nevertheless, in these things, the customs and laws of the country we inhabit, the dictates of modesty, and even humanity itself. will direct us what to do, and what to avoid; . . . If any one object, and resolve to be wiser on this subject than is necessary, let him examine by what reason he can justify his obstinacy to the Lord. We ought, however, to be satisfied with the declaration of Paul, "If any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor the Churches of God."" ---John Calvin, Institutes, vol. 4, ch. 10, sec. 29-30.

 

[ray Marshall]

Umm - no. Deborah was a judge. You might want to read the Bible again to see the story.

Do you know where the scripture is? I will have to read about it again.

 

[annsni]

Do you know where the scripture is? I will have to read about it again.

Judges 4..........