Mighty Quiet

Ed Edwards: ..And again I say:
If a nation must practice torture to preserve it's ideals;
then it doesn't have any ideals worth preserving.//

Hillclimber1: //This nation does not do that and never has.
Why would you perpetuate that lie?//

Ed Edwards: //Which part of 'if' are you having problems with?//

Hillclimber1: //I saw the "if" but saw no other reason
for the post than to bash the military. I didn't think
you were playing a little game.//

Then you totally misunderstood what I said & what I meant.

The current administration has not repudiated the
use of torture 'for homeland defense'. Military studies
show that torture of prisioners is LOUSY
INTELLEGENCE . Likely the WMD that were supposed to be
in Iraq were 'torture intellegence'

I retired in August 2006 after 30 years working as a civilian with
the U.S.Military.

I'll try rewording my statement:

If this administration must practice torture
to save it's ideals; then it doesn't have
any ideals worth saving.

Or to support the military of the USofA:

If you have to practice torture to save your skin;
it ain't worth saving.

Torture denigerates the torturer and his/her culture.
And torture is the opposite of intellegence (on several
levels).

 

Some Discernment on Torture worth repeating

DISCERNMENT

Or how you would parse it ..."preach it!"

 

OK then I repeat. This nation does not torture and never has.
I happen to feel that it should be willing to, if needed to extract vital information.

 

Sad that one who claims to have such regard for American decency would stoop so low as to advocate the imitating of practices used by our enemies.

It also seems somewhat hypocritical for someone to, on the one hand say that Saddam Hussein was a tyrant who tortured and brutalized his own people, and therefore needed to be overthrowen, while thinking it is alright to torture if we are the ones who are doing it.

 

I agree with God's placing a very high value on human life. And if by utilizing some methods that have proven effective, would save our soldiers or citizens lives, I would be willing to extract that information.

If someone had my 13-year-old daughter captive and was threatening harm, and I had a perp that knew where she was, there is nothing I would not do to get that information. Should I expect anything less for a soldier, protecting my family? I think not. If you have a problem with that, fine, deal with it.

 

My contention is that 'vital information'
CANNOT be extracted by torture. Torture is a waste of time
toward gathering intellegence AND torture contaminates the
people and societies that practice it AND torture isn't kind.
Torture is UnChristian and UnAmerican.

 

There is a huge difference between what Saddam and most other facist dictators do/did (torture) with innocent civilians and what militaries should do in combat against aggressors. Why should the U.S. refuse to use effective tools to defend us, simply because some feel good group of individuals decided it isn't fair, politically correct or it's un American? It's so ubsurd it's funny.

This attitude is heavily at play in the middle east right now in the form of "rules of engagement" which is constantly being modified to protect terrorists from their just reward, and at the same time putting our soldiers at greater risk. They are not allowed to shoot first and ascertain justification later. In that short time many end up wounded or dead. When these terrorists are holed up in Mosques, they are protected, because some bleeding heart liberal back home said it would not be fair to attack them at worship.

 

[personally] my previous statement about protecting family still stands.
[militarily] I'm not talking about removing body parts, or permanent injury. I'm talking about barking dogs on a leash held by a woman. Putting women’s underwear on their heads, in general demoralizing them. These people spill their guts with very little coercion so it's not that difficult. The most effective tool lately is the water boarding. And it has been shown to be no threat to life at all but the illusion that they are drowning, works almost immediately. It has now been decided that it is torture, unless I'm mistaken. INSANITY
I believe that this attack on the military's ability to get this info, (labeled torture) was a direct attack on the Bush administration, for purely political reasons. Not moral ones.

 

Hillclimber1: //Why should the U.S. refuse to use effective tools
to defend us, simply because some feel good group
of individuals decided it isn't fair, politically correct
or it's un American? It's so ubsurd it's funny.//

'effective tools'? I've argued (and you haven't countered it)
that torture produces BAD INTELLEGENCE.
Tortue is a very ineffective tool.

'Feel good'? Didn't I say that US Military or civilians
caught torturing people should suffer the death penalty
(preferably in under 2 years, not over 10)?
How is the death penalty 'feel good'?

 

Sadly, this was not an unexpected response. Someone points you to scripture for authority and rather than responding with an alternative text/interpretation you say "a little sleep, a little slumber..."

The Bible says "without natural affection". Feel free to look it up yourself. This directly relates to those who don't have love for people they should naturally love, ie their own children.

But you protest, "I've never had anything to do with an abortion". The text goes on to condemn those who have "pleasure" or else affirm those who do those sins. By voting for people who openly espouse "abortion rights", you are affirming and legitimizing those who murder their unborn children.

The fact that you apparently do it because Dems take the property of others and give it to you makes it all the worse. You are willing to sacrifice the lives of other human beings to fulfill your own desires.

I wouldn't allow another person to be sacrificed to fulfill my own needs. I'd willingly starve before seeing a baby aborted with an attached promise by those who allow it that they will fill my stomach if I assent.

There is another text that you bring to mind as well... you know, the one about itching ears. It seems for awhile that you espoused KJVOnlyism. They apparently told you something or did something that didn't tickle your ears though.

That's our system. The difference is that we believe in it and want to preserve. Pelosi and her ilk want to use it to destroy it and transform it into some sort of socialist state.

You mean like those who say words mean what they mean and not what I need them to mean so I can advance an agenda that could never make it through the legislative process?

Please tell me what right you would lose if someone ruled strictly on what the Constitution said? Oh yeah. Maybe that fabricated "right" to vote yourself a living out of someone else's labor/property that you seem to treasure so much.

Terry, Why is it you cannot give an answer for your political beliefs from the Bible? Why is it when you are shown biblical principles that contradict your political position you run from them rather than answering?

Are you a Christian first or a Democrat first? A Christian should draw their viewpoint from the Bible, not the promises of humanistic socialism.

 

I don't approve of real torture however this isn't completely true. Torture doesn't always produce bad intel. It is sort of like the interrogation the police use. Pressure someone to tell you the whole story without telling them which parts you already know.

FTR, some of the stuff being called torture, isn't. Isolation is not torture. Sleep deprivation may be borderline but has been accepted for decades worldwide. "Offending" the Koran is not torture. Embarrassing someone is not torture.

 

The only question is how many millions he would be given to leave.

In many cases, it was Republican hypocrisy that cost them the election. Hypocrisy knows no political boundaries.


Tim Reynolds

 

Are you suggesting that they should have ordered a hit on a Justice of the Supreme Court?


Tim Reynolds

 

Your example of abortion notwithstanding, it seems from many of your posts and replies on this thread that you are willing to put another person's life in jeopardy, or at least let the person think that their life is in jeopardy, in order to "fulfill your needs."

This is a question you yourself need to answer. The views you have expressed in this thread raise serious questions in my mind as to whether you draw any distinction between being a Christian and being an American. You have described conditions under which torture is allowable. You can minimize the effects and split semantic hairs all you want, but it is still torture.

Again, you need to cite chapter and verse in support of your views on the use of torture. I'm really interested in seeing them.


Tim Reynolds

 

Iraq isn't the problem! The whole middle east, liberals, and a whole lot else, needs to get off this planet, so I can be get the joy God promises, and then I can start making childern's movies that will keep in the high box office listing

 

Your joy in the Lord is dependent on something other than the Lord? How, exactly, is this joy? It may make you happier if liberals are gone, but happiness and joy are not the same things.

 

why wouldn't God be happy if all the liberals were gone? If he wern't but was a liberal I wouldn't be here would I?

 

We did deal with it, we threw out you republicans and replaced them with us democrats. :laugh:

You deal with it! :laugh:

 

i'm thinking of blowing up my city and the ones around it, that should get me some crowns in heaven