Military pastor

Go back and read Post #29, where I quote Mr. Faulk's joy at being able to use our tax dollars to support religious proselytizing, as well where I explicitly stated individuals can speak freely, but that using taxes to do missionary work is wrong.

 

If definition of religious proselytizing, is fulfilling the great commission and encouraging my flock to do the same, then count me guilty. I don't want our guys to forsake their careers, or to fall down on the job. I by no means support subversive behavior. I represent a network of churches all around the world supported by military men and women who are tired of limits of chaplain on what they can say in a service. They are men and women from generals to privates who are genuine believers who want more out of a church than a once a week pep talk which is less controversial than a Unitarian service. If your passion is supporting the troops, celebrate the network of church that serve believers that serve in the military. I ask the same of my military folks that I do out of my DOD and Civilians, Submit to authority, but always carry Christ as your banner. When given military law, obey every time, unless it contradicts what Christ law is. In the case of military law and Christian obedience, always obey God. I would challenge you sir to question your own allegiance. Democracy is a wonderful gift, but it does become an idol when we place it above our Christianity.

 

So, MP, do you think that a soldier should be prohibited from sharing the message?

 

I have to say that I am shocked that anyone would take offence at this. While I think the phrase about doing this with US tax dollars may have been ill advised, every believer needs to be a testimony for Christ no matter who their employer is. Don't steal your employer's money by failing to do your work, but be ready to speak of Christ as naturally as one might speak of their favourite sports team or the weather.

 

Agreed, we never teach our men to be anything but the best. My simple point, which was blown out of praportion, is that our congregation has the oppertunity through their deployments to impact the world... Iraq Australlia, Korea... for Christ. I apologize for my wording.

 

Salty, it is in the First Amendment...the establishment clause and the free exercise clause. Church and state joined cause great harm to both; this is why we have one of the most free and religious people in the world.

If you want to state that the phrase "Separation of Church & State" is not in the Constitution, you are correct. However, that is a shorthand way of stating a concept that is clearly there. Just as the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible, yet the concept is.

 

The idea that a Soldier or any government employee checks his or her Christianity at the gate or door is absurd. Christians are Christians 24/7 Period.

The First Admendment does not separate government from the influence of religion but rather prohibits government from establishing any one religion as the "official" religion of the state.

 

My enemy is anyone that would threaten my life, my family, my way of life, my country. If I must kill them to protect those things then it is a duty to do so. Hitler had to be stopped or there might not have been a USA today.

 

A careful study of the intent of the founding fathers, as well as established case law and numerous SCOTUS decisions clearly deny your interpretation, professor. In fact, the only rewriting of history is by the anti-separation crowd. You are free to interpret it differently, but your interpretation carries no weight. That of the courts, do.

I don't need the lecture...I am aware of Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists. Like I pointed out, the concept is clearly there. It is a shorthand way, as it was in Jefferson's day, to describe the wonderful concept of keeping religion and government out of each others business.

 

Moderator's note

Guys, we're now talking about history, Constitutional law, and public policy. We haven't talked about pastoral ministry in some time. Can we get back on topic, please? The 24 hour notice is not far off. Thanks.

 

I am pro-separation, but Major B is quite correct in the meaning and intent of things, and that's the sense of which I am pro-separation.

The governmnet is not to establish a religion, but to prohibit a soldier from witnessing to someone would be anti-biblical and unconstitutional.

The military endorsing a particular religion by requiring a chaplain to be Catholic is far different than permitting a civilian who teaches soldiers to be a Catholic.

 

MP I find it sad, that constitutional law is being used to trump Scriptural law. I have admitted that my phrasing was wrong, but the concept is not. Our members are active in ministry where ever they are stationed. Their goal is fulfilling the great commission, as any Baptist would say is the mission of the believer. They have restraints like any Gov employee, but also have freedom with their spare time to use their influence for the kingdom of God. It was an amazing sight as the military community in work with the Franklin Graham Festivals, saw thousands of Japanese believers saved. Was their influence used to ask both the nationals they were around, and military also, to impact God's kingdom? Would one throw those souls away so that the constitution can be held above scripture? How about our military wives who teach ESL with the sole purpose of introducing Japanese women to Christ? Are not the families supported by US gov? Would you dismiss their work for constitutional correctness? How about all the military volunteers who helped with VBS seeing 3 Japanese kids saved? Is that a violation of church and state? Our church has received several commendations from the military because of our service to the military community, and service to promote a healthy relationship between Japanese people and Americans. I would say if my actions were unlawful and deserving of a court martial then certainly the military would not honor our church. When Constitutional law crosses Christian Call, one must choose Christ every time. I have expressed this in a previous posting, but I think this is my point, that Democracy is a wonderful gift, but when it stands as greater than faith it becomes an idol. Please sir, support the troops, but support the believers who are not settling for watered down Christianity. If anything please lead those around you in prayer for military churches that they might be lights in dark places, and that they would be used by God to bring military men and women, along with nationals to believe in Jesus Christ.

Moderator, If we are discussing in the wrong place, could you help us by moving our part of this thread to the proper place.

 

Back to Pastoral ministries

The man who baptized me was a church planter who has planted over a dozen viable churches, and the military paid for all of them in a real sense, as he was fulfilling his Army duties for a living and planting the church while off-duty. There is nothing any court can do about that. The Air Force supported my ministry in the same way, and they continue to do so through my pension--all my right to do.

But, to get onto pastoral ministry again, what should a Bible Believing pastor do who has a member who is a federal court judge and votes to support abortion or something like that.?:thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

 

When it comes to military personnel on duty, constitution law should always trump scriptural law. They take an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States. I never said they could not talk about their faith in a one-on-one situation, off duty. But when they are at work, religion should not be a part of it. I am not saying you leave your beliefs at the door or the gate; they are part of who you are. But I am saying, at work, this crosses the lines of good taste and legality. If I were to proselytize at my job, I'd be fired, and rightfully so.

Their goals as military personnel is representing and defending the United States. I don't think it wise when in that role while stationed in other cultures, to preach. This could be seen in the eyes of the natives as the US trying to spread Christianity as an official policy. It is not up to individual soldiers to establish foreign policy. I do agree that they still have freedom of speech, but it is limited, just as mine is at work.

That is a false dichotomy. Graham runs a ministry, and should bear the cost of his festivals, not the American taxpayer.

Not so. The military has crossed the line many times, but that doesn't make it right or legal. Are you not familiar with the harrassment and proselytizing that was going on against non-Christian cadets at the US Air Force Academy recently? That was wrong, and people lost commands over it.

If one feels that strongly about the matter, they should decline military service and enter the mission field as a preacher. This has no place in our government, or its representatives, including military personnel.

I pray daily for our brave military members, despite the fact that I believe their Commander in Chief lied to send them to a war that should not have been fought. But I will never pray for them to engage in any type of missionary work while representing our nation. I would also question if deployed military are ever really "off duty" when serving overseas. The eyes of the native peoples still see them as representing the United States of America.

 

MP your words speak for themselves.

 

Possibly, but I can guarantee you one thing for SURE, the Bible separates church and state quite CLEARLY.

 

Where in scripture, does it ever show that the laws of man no matter what job should precede the laws of God. When should loyalty to a job be taken over loyalty to God? THe early church was forced out of their places of work, and persecuted. Following your logic, much of the persecuted church would not exist. If mans laws came before God's laws, then believers in china, the middle east, and throughout the world would have to deny their faith in order to obey the government. It is this defeatist attitude that has the American church shrinking at an alarming rate. They are so afraid of even the slightest persecution that they will cower while their coworkers remain dead to the gospel.

You are asking Christians to check their faith at the door. This is taking such a ethnocentric view saying that Christianity belongs to America. Again, you will disagree, but how can you say that one must bow before the constitution above and beyond the Bible. Your speech is not limited at work. You have the right to stand for Christ. Will you face the consequences, yes, but it is again a question of loyalty, to obey God’s commands even at work, or to obey your employer’s commands to the degree of denying your faith at the front step of your office.

No US taxpayer dollar went to support FGF. I never made that claim. Now our military personnel gave out of their own paychecks, and time off to support the ministry, but they never used office time or dollars for FGF. I do find it sad that American ideals are seen as greater than the souls of over 1000 Japanese people.

If those men willingly served God above Gov, then I am proud of them. Did they suffer the consequences and persecution of standing for their faith, yes, as we all must do.

I am a missionary. Also, let’s not vote, because we take our Christian values to the poles. In fact, sir we should oust any government official who claims Christ, because their actions, being that they should serve God first, are treasonous to America. Every man who is a Christian should always submit to God first and foremost, not have God submit to the gov.


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First, we are not discussing Iraq. Secondly if our service men and women cannot share with their friends, and nationals, who will? I find often those who want only missionaries to evangelize are the same who refuse to fulfill the commission themselves. If you will not allow servicemen, to evangelize, will you come over here and preach the good news to the Japanese people and American servicemen?

To you statement regarding off duty, are you really saying that Service people are to check their faith at the airport before they leave to go to Okinawa?

I will say my statement a bit more boldly as I feel it needs clarification. American laws, ideals, and loyalty are an Idol when respected and followed above the Law, ideal and loyalty to God. MP choose whom you will serve, I will never tell my troops to forsake God in order to obey an order. When loyalty to God infringes with loyalty to a government, God should always win. Are there possible ramifications to that, yes, but persecution is a sign of a God honoring man.