This is not to poke fun at anyone or to disrespect anyones belief... I would like to know what are your millenial views... Baptist have many and various and the debates go on and on... What are yours?... Brother Glen
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Millenial Views Among Non Baptist
- Thread starter tyndale1946
- Start date
My end times beliefs are as follows:
Tribulation - Covers the entire time of the New Testament between the first and second coming of Christ. It is currently happening now and at the end, it will become more intense as satan is released upon the earth and the nations turn their backs on God and turn toward him. During the entire New Testament times God's judgements (seals, bowls, and trumpets) intensify as well.
1,000 year reign - Is a heavenly reign not an earthly reign. The souls who died for Christ are currently reigning with Him in His heavenly kingdom as this covers the whole time between the first and second coming.
Rapture - Christians are caught up to meet Christ in the air as He comes to the earth on Judgement day. There is only one return of Christ and it takes place on Judgement day.
Antichrist - The papacy
prostitute - False church who is unfaithful to her husband, God. She will have great wealth, persecute believers, and rise out of Rome.
Tribulation - Covers the entire time of the New Testament between the first and second coming of Christ. It is currently happening now and at the end, it will become more intense as satan is released upon the earth and the nations turn their backs on God and turn toward him. During the entire New Testament times God's judgements (seals, bowls, and trumpets) intensify as well.
1,000 year reign - Is a heavenly reign not an earthly reign. The souls who died for Christ are currently reigning with Him in His heavenly kingdom as this covers the whole time between the first and second coming.
Rapture - Christians are caught up to meet Christ in the air as He comes to the earth on Judgement day. There is only one return of Christ and it takes place on Judgement day.
Antichrist - The papacy
prostitute - False church who is unfaithful to her husband, God. She will have great wealth, persecute believers, and rise out of Rome.
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
First of all, Chrift- you are a brave soul, I commend you on your boldness.
Secondly, I am a Seventh Day Adventist (everyone pretty much knows this, but just in case, I thought I would mention it).
Millenial Events:
From 1844 to now, Pre Advent Judgment, (of the those who have called on the name of Jesus [this is the judgment of the 'house of God'])
World forced to make a decision to either follow the 'beast' or stay true to God
Probation period closes
7 Bowl Judgments(plagues) fall
Believers Resurrected
Believers receive immortality
Wicked living consumed
Wicked dead in grave
Believers ascend to Heaven with Christ
Earth is left desolate
Satan bound to earth with demons
1000 Years IN heaven Saints judge the world (Judgment seat of Christ)
Wicked resurrected
Satan released
New Jerusalem comes down
Wicked with Satan and demons attack New Jerusalem
Wicked judged in Great White Throne Judgment (executive Judgment)
Satan and Wicked destroyed in Lake of Fire on the 'breadth of the earth'
Old heaven and Earth completely consumed 'melted'
New Heaven and New Earth created
Eternity begins, with no sin, and no sinners, and no Satan, and no demons, and NO TEARS, and NO PAIN, and NO SORROW.
FOREVER!
Hallelujah!!!!
God Bless
Secondly, I am a Seventh Day Adventist (everyone pretty much knows this, but just in case, I thought I would mention it).
Millenial Events:
From 1844 to now, Pre Advent Judgment, (of the those who have called on the name of Jesus [this is the judgment of the 'house of God'])
World forced to make a decision to either follow the 'beast' or stay true to God
Probation period closes
7 Bowl Judgments(plagues) fall
Believers Resurrected
Believers receive immortality
Wicked living consumed
Wicked dead in grave
Believers ascend to Heaven with Christ
Earth is left desolate
Satan bound to earth with demons
1000 Years IN heaven Saints judge the world (Judgment seat of Christ)
Wicked resurrected
Satan released
New Jerusalem comes down
Wicked with Satan and demons attack New Jerusalem
Wicked judged in Great White Throne Judgment (executive Judgment)
Satan and Wicked destroyed in Lake of Fire on the 'breadth of the earth'
Old heaven and Earth completely consumed 'melted'
New Heaven and New Earth created
Eternity begins, with no sin, and no sinners, and no Satan, and no demons, and NO TEARS, and NO PAIN, and NO SORROW.
FOREVER!
Hallelujah!!!!
God Bless
Dave Bussard
New Member
Literal Covenant between Antichrist and Israel
Literal 70th Week (7 years; still future)
Abomination of Desolation
The Church suffers under the hand of the Antichrist
Pre-wrath rapture after sixth seal is removed from scroll (time unknown)
A few other things
Armageddon
Satan bound / 1000 year reign of Christ
Satan set free for a little while to deceive the nations
Satan done away with for good
Perfection forever!
www.whowillbeleftbehindandwhen.com
www.leftbehindwhen.injesus.com
Literal 70th Week (7 years; still future)
Abomination of Desolation
The Church suffers under the hand of the Antichrist
Pre-wrath rapture after sixth seal is removed from scroll (time unknown)
A few other things
Armageddon
Satan bound / 1000 year reign of Christ
Satan set free for a little while to deceive the nations
Satan done away with for good
Perfection forever!
www.whowillbeleftbehindandwhen.com
www.leftbehindwhen.injesus.com
This doctrine changes almost as fast as the weather. Those who espouse it do not agree as is seen by the many types of millennialism presented in secular and sectarian books. There are historical premillennialist, dispensational premillennialist,etc. It apppears some are like those found in Acts 17:21, they spend their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.
I will address one major component of the dispensational type. Dispensationalist divide all time into seven mythical periods. By their calculations we are in the six dispensation or the church age. The major fallacy of this division is the dichotomy of the church and the kingdom. Jesus promised to build his church. Mat. 16:18. Jesus gave Peter the keys of the kingdom. vs. 19. If the kingdom had not been built, the keys Jesus gave him would have been useless. This promise of the kingdom being established was fulfilled in Acts 2:36-41,47. After using the keys to admit Jews, the Gentiles by these same keys were allowed to enter. Acts 10:47,48.
The church at Colossae is described as the kingdom of Christ who had been translated . ( Col. 1:13). The Hebrew writer referred to the church as a kingdom that cannot be shaken. Hebrews 10:23). John wrote to the seven churches of Asia that the Lord has " made us to be a kingdom" ) Rev. 1:4,6). In the same context he said that he was AT THAT TIME a partaker with them " In the Kingdom" ( v. 9). These are only a few of the many statements that identify the kingdom as the church.
The church-kingdom dichotomy implies that the blood bought church of our Lord was little more than an after thought in the mind of God, thought up spontaneously to substitute for the failed Kingdom. The God of Premillennialism is thus seen to be so impotent that he is unable to anticipate the rejection of his son and his earthly kingdom ambitions. Of course, the God of Truth knew they would do to his Son ( read Isaiah 53), and Jesus had no earthly kingdom plans. John 18:36. The kingdom was to come with power during the time of the apostles. Mark 9:1. It did! Is. 2:1-4, Luke 24:44-51, Acts 2:1-4, 38,41,47.
If God failed the first time, what makes anyone think he will be successful the second time?
This doctrine is obviously false when examined in the light of the Bible, particularly the new testament.
I will address one major component of the dispensational type. Dispensationalist divide all time into seven mythical periods. By their calculations we are in the six dispensation or the church age. The major fallacy of this division is the dichotomy of the church and the kingdom. Jesus promised to build his church. Mat. 16:18. Jesus gave Peter the keys of the kingdom. vs. 19. If the kingdom had not been built, the keys Jesus gave him would have been useless. This promise of the kingdom being established was fulfilled in Acts 2:36-41,47. After using the keys to admit Jews, the Gentiles by these same keys were allowed to enter. Acts 10:47,48.
The church at Colossae is described as the kingdom of Christ who had been translated . ( Col. 1:13). The Hebrew writer referred to the church as a kingdom that cannot be shaken. Hebrews 10:23). John wrote to the seven churches of Asia that the Lord has " made us to be a kingdom" ) Rev. 1:4,6). In the same context he said that he was AT THAT TIME a partaker with them " In the Kingdom" ( v. 9). These are only a few of the many statements that identify the kingdom as the church.
The church-kingdom dichotomy implies that the blood bought church of our Lord was little more than an after thought in the mind of God, thought up spontaneously to substitute for the failed Kingdom. The God of Premillennialism is thus seen to be so impotent that he is unable to anticipate the rejection of his son and his earthly kingdom ambitions. Of course, the God of Truth knew they would do to his Son ( read Isaiah 53), and Jesus had no earthly kingdom plans. John 18:36. The kingdom was to come with power during the time of the apostles. Mark 9:1. It did! Is. 2:1-4, Luke 24:44-51, Acts 2:1-4, 38,41,47.
If God failed the first time, what makes anyone think he will be successful the second time?
This doctrine is obviously false when examined in the light of the Bible, particularly the new testament.
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
The Catholic position has historically been "amillennial" (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers), though Catholics do not typically use this term. The Church has rejected the premillennial position, sometimes called "millenarianism" (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676). In the 1940s the Holy Office judged that premillennialism "cannot safely be taught," though the Church has not dogmatically defined this issue.
With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word "rapture" to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—"we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur]).
I believe that Christ's Kingdom is on Earth at this present moment in the form of his Church. This means that I am an amillenialist. The amillennial view interprets Revelation 20 symbolically and sees the millennium not as an earthly golden age in which the world will be totally Christianized, but as the present period of Christ’s rule in heaven and on the earth through his Church.
Peter tells us in Acts 2 that Jesus' ascension is his heavenly enthronement as the Son of David, the Davidic King:
"Brethren, I may say to you confidently of the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants upon his throne, he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ"
With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word "rapture" to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—"we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur]).
I believe that Christ's Kingdom is on Earth at this present moment in the form of his Church. This means that I am an amillenialist. The amillennial view interprets Revelation 20 symbolically and sees the millennium not as an earthly golden age in which the world will be totally Christianized, but as the present period of Christ’s rule in heaven and on the earth through his Church.
Peter tells us in Acts 2 that Jesus' ascension is his heavenly enthronement as the Son of David, the Davidic King:
"Brethren, I may say to you confidently of the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants upon his throne, he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ"
I am of the Primitive Baptist brethren... personally after many years of study I have come to be partial preterist amil. A preterist for those that don't know believe all things were fulfilled in the early church... Most in 70AD with the destruction of Jerusalem.
I am partial because while I believe a lot pertained to the early church recorded by Josephus in his works from a historical perspective and the law dispensation being fulfilled and the grace dispensation of time being ushered in... It all came about according to the 11th chapter of Romans.
I also believe as Carson does that we are now living in the church age. I'm surprised that the Catholics adhere to the amil doctrine... You learn something new everyday. I will not argue your millenial beliefs with you as you and your millenial beliefs are as unique as you are. Thank you for answering my question and I look forward to hearing from other non baptist on theirs... Brother Glen
I am partial because while I believe a lot pertained to the early church recorded by Josephus in his works from a historical perspective and the law dispensation being fulfilled and the grace dispensation of time being ushered in... It all came about according to the 11th chapter of Romans.
I also believe as Carson does that we are now living in the church age. I'm surprised that the Catholics adhere to the amil doctrine... You learn something new everyday. I will not argue your millenial beliefs with you as you and your millenial beliefs are as unique as you are. Thank you for answering my question and I look forward to hearing from other non baptist on theirs... Brother Glen
Born Again Catholic
New Member
Taking into consideration all that Carson said, I think your definition of yourself as a "partial preterist amil" would probably be exactly how most Protestants would describe my own understanding of the subject.
God Bless
God Bless
Amil...the bible is message for every believer..
the "Rapture" is describing an individuals spiritual resurrection while still alive in the body.
and occurs when a believer understands that Jesus rose from the dead and became lord.. and John's revelation of Jesus Christ is just that...
the revealing of Jesus as lord in John's life.or simply describing Jesus destroying God's "enemies". the world, flesh and devil. becoming Lord over all, in John's as well as every believers life.
His personal vision....
and 1000 means 10x10x10..
where 10 = complete..as in tieth or ten (complete)
the "Rapture" is describing an individuals spiritual resurrection while still alive in the body.
and occurs when a believer understands that Jesus rose from the dead and became lord.. and John's revelation of Jesus Christ is just that...
the revealing of Jesus as lord in John's life.or simply describing Jesus destroying God's "enemies". the world, flesh and devil. becoming Lord over all, in John's as well as every believers life.
His personal vision....
and 1000 means 10x10x10..
where 10 = complete..as in tieth or ten (complete)
thessalonian
New Member
Good post Carson. Us Catholics agree.
Most protestants will fightt to the bitter end over there particular definition of the rapture and end times. When theories like Mr. Miller's and the guy who wrote the Late Great Planet Earth, Hal Lindsy (by the way, I just heard him on the radio the other day, he's still somehow popular, even though he is a false prophet) don't materialize they just slide on to the next theory which they support with scripture. That guy who is on late Saturday nights with the blonde lady (don't know their names) had the lights all going out with the year 2000 thing.
Then I find it interesting that most of them, when you press them about other Protestants who disagree with them about it, they will say something like, well it isn't neccessary for salvation to believe one way or another. I find this odd for people who solely look to the Bible as a source of all that is neccessary for salvation.
There will be a Tribulatoin. There will be a rapture of sorts but somehow Christian America thinks that they are somehow special that they should not have to go through what the early Christians went through in the Colesium or the many trials Christians have been subjected too through the ages. Not one Christian has ever been martyred and yet somehow the fans of Mr. Lahaye and Jenkins get duped in to thinking we will. The blood of the martyr's is precious and if we have to go through tribulation and martyrdom it should be an honor for us.
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Luke 23:26
When they led Him away, they seized a man, Simon of Cyrene, coming in from the country, and placed on him the cross to carry behind Jesus.
Luke 14:27
"Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
Mark 8:34
And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
It is not a denial of self to expect to be raptured. It is a denial of the cross.
Most protestants will fightt to the bitter end over there particular definition of the rapture and end times. When theories like Mr. Miller's and the guy who wrote the Late Great Planet Earth, Hal Lindsy (by the way, I just heard him on the radio the other day, he's still somehow popular, even though he is a false prophet) don't materialize they just slide on to the next theory which they support with scripture. That guy who is on late Saturday nights with the blonde lady (don't know their names) had the lights all going out with the year 2000 thing.
Then I find it interesting that most of them, when you press them about other Protestants who disagree with them about it, they will say something like, well it isn't neccessary for salvation to believe one way or another. I find this odd for people who solely look to the Bible as a source of all that is neccessary for salvation.
There will be a Tribulatoin. There will be a rapture of sorts but somehow Christian America thinks that they are somehow special that they should not have to go through what the early Christians went through in the Colesium or the many trials Christians have been subjected too through the ages. Not one Christian has ever been martyred and yet somehow the fans of Mr. Lahaye and Jenkins get duped in to thinking we will. The blood of the martyr's is precious and if we have to go through tribulation and martyrdom it should be an honor for us.
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Luke 23:26
When they led Him away, they seized a man, Simon of Cyrene, coming in from the country, and placed on him the cross to carry behind Jesus.
Luke 14:27
"Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
Mark 8:34
And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
It is not a denial of self to expect to be raptured. It is a denial of the cross.
Would you elaborate a little more about your statement... are you saying that you are also partial preterist amil?... I agree also there are far to many books on the subject and no wonder Gods people are so confused. If we would just serve God and each other this world would be a better place... The Lord will come when he comes and until he does... We are to read and study and learn how to serve God and our fellowman!... Brother Glen
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
tyndale,
That would be a good idea, but I think it IS important for us to be aware of who the Beast is, and what it is going to do. We are warned.
That even the very elect, could be deceived.
God Bless
That would be a good idea, but I think it IS important for us to be aware of who the Beast is, and what it is going to do. We are warned.
That even the very elect, could be deceived.
God Bless
Chrift:
I know that the SDA teaches that the papacy is the anti-Christ, but I didn't know there was a Lutheran teaching on this. Also, what differences are there between ELCA, LCMS, and WELS?
This might not be the right thread for this, but when you can, I would appreciate hearing from you.
I know that the SDA teaches that the papacy is the anti-Christ, but I didn't know there was a Lutheran teaching on this. Also, what differences are there between ELCA, LCMS, and WELS?
This might not be the right thread for this, but when you can, I would appreciate hearing from you.
I'm not a premillenialist. I side with the amillenial view.
It concerns me greatly when churches (especially Baptist ones) teach premillenialism as the only acceptible belief for the Christian. Worse yet, when they use the phrase "Premillenial doctrine". It's interpretation, not doctrine, folks!!!
It concerns me greatly when churches (especially Baptist ones) teach premillenialism as the only acceptible belief for the Christian. Worse yet, when they use the phrase "Premillenial doctrine". It's interpretation, not doctrine, folks!!!
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
It's interpretation, not doctrine, folks
But, you must understand that doctrine is the result of interpreting Scripture.
But, you must understand that doctrine is the result of interpreting Scripture.
Born Again Catholic
New Member
QUOTE]Originally posted by tyndale1946:
[/QUOTE]
First I think to much time is focused on predicting the second coming rather than preparing for it.
As Carson said the Church has been historically Amil. Within that teaching there is some variety of thought among Catholic theologians.
I am not qualified to interpret or instruct others how to interpret these prophecies but for what its worth (which is not much) I tend to agree most strongly with Cathoic theologians who offer an interpretation that most but not all of Revelation was fullfilled in the 1st century and that we still are looking forward to the Second Coming, General Judgement etc. With the Whore of Babylon being Apostate Jerusalem that was destroyed in 70 AD as you mentioned. (Other Catholics theologians might identify the whore as pagan Rome but I just don't see how it could be anything but Apostate Jerusalem.)
God Bless
[ February 11, 2003, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Born Again Catholic ]
Would you elaborate a little more about your statement... are you saying that you are also partial preterist amil?... I agree also there are far to many books on the subject and no wonder Gods people are so confused. If we would just serve God and each other this world would be a better place... The Lord will come when he comes and until he does... We are to read and study and learn how to serve God and our fellowman!... Brother Glen
First I think to much time is focused on predicting the second coming rather than preparing for it.
As Carson said the Church has been historically Amil. Within that teaching there is some variety of thought among Catholic theologians.
I am not qualified to interpret or instruct others how to interpret these prophecies but for what its worth (which is not much) I tend to agree most strongly with Cathoic theologians who offer an interpretation that most but not all of Revelation was fullfilled in the 1st century and that we still are looking forward to the Second Coming, General Judgement etc. With the Whore of Babylon being Apostate Jerusalem that was destroyed in 70 AD as you mentioned. (Other Catholics theologians might identify the whore as pagan Rome but I just don't see how it could be anything but Apostate Jerusalem.)
God Bless
[ February 11, 2003, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Born Again Catholic ]
Born Again Catholic
New Member
Hi Carson
I was at the Catholic family conference in Long Beach in July 2002 and very briefly met someone from Stubenville, Michael Barber Sp?, he said he was probably going to have a book coming out on Revelation in Jan 2003 which was going to go through Rev line by line, have you heard anythimg about this.
Dennis
PS Everytime I read your posts I wish I had consider going somewhere like Franciscan to get my education and to study theology. Maybe one of these years I will sign up for some extension courses there. In any event I am thankful to see what a lot hard work and a great Catholic education can do. Keep up the good work!
[ February 11, 2003, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: Born Again Catholic ]
I was at the Catholic family conference in Long Beach in July 2002 and very briefly met someone from Stubenville, Michael Barber Sp?, he said he was probably going to have a book coming out on Revelation in Jan 2003 which was going to go through Rev line by line, have you heard anythimg about this.
Dennis
PS Everytime I read your posts I wish I had consider going somewhere like Franciscan to get my education and to study theology. Maybe one of these years I will sign up for some extension courses there. In any event I am thankful to see what a lot hard work and a great Catholic education can do. Keep up the good work!
[ February 11, 2003, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: Born Again Catholic ]
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Carson -
The Catholic position has historically been "amillennial" (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers), though Catholics do not typically use this term
Exactly right!
The AMillennial view WAS the most popular view among non-Catholics until after the 1800's. Thanks to William Miller and a few others - the PRE-Millenial view of the 2nd coming is NOW the most common view outside of the Catholic church. The RCC still sticks to the AMillenial view as you point out.
Count me in as Pre-Millenial 2nd coming, POST-Trib Rapture. However the Post-Trib rapture that I believe in is the same (in terms of the saints) as the Pre-trip and Mid-trib rapture, in that BOTH the living and the dead are caught up in the air to meet Christ and are then taken to heaven.
"IN My Father's house are many dwelling places. I GO there to prepare A PLACE for you. ... I WILL come again and RECEIVE you to Myself that WHERE I am there you may BE also".
In Christ,
Bob
The Catholic position has historically been "amillennial" (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers), though Catholics do not typically use this term
Exactly right!
The AMillennial view WAS the most popular view among non-Catholics until after the 1800's. Thanks to William Miller and a few others - the PRE-Millenial view of the 2nd coming is NOW the most common view outside of the Catholic church. The RCC still sticks to the AMillenial view as you point out.
Count me in as Pre-Millenial 2nd coming, POST-Trib Rapture. However the Post-Trib rapture that I believe in is the same (in terms of the saints) as the Pre-trip and Mid-trib rapture, in that BOTH the living and the dead are caught up in the air to meet Christ and are then taken to heaven.
"IN My Father's house are many dwelling places. I GO there to prepare A PLACE for you. ... I WILL come again and RECEIVE you to Myself that WHERE I am there you may BE also".
In Christ,
Bob