Millenial Views Among Non Baptist

[3AngelsMom]

Catholic Convert says:
Now if you know anything at all about Jewish rite and religion, you know that the CORPORATE SACRIFICE for the covenantal people is YOM KIPPUR. In Hebrews 9 and 10, we see a curious thing. Christ takes His own precious Blood and goes into the "temple made without hands" in Heaven and cleanses it as the Great High Priest. In other words, He performs YOM KIPPUR, and does so for the new nation of the New Covenant, the Church.

In the Jewish rite, the sacrifice of YOM KIPPUR was not complete until the high priest descended down the stairs he had ascended to make that offereing. Therefore, by making the type/antetype fulfillment, our YOM KIPPUR as the Church, done by our Great High Priest, would not be complete until Christ returned also from whence He had ascended to make that sacrifice. Antetype MUST follow type.

So...when Jesus returned in AD 70, the sacrifice was completed, paradise was opened and the "dead" in Christ were raised to glory. And the living saints were also translated in spirit, that is, there was a change in their relationship to God so that any righteous man or woman dying from thence onward would no longer go to Paradise, but be now ushered straight to the presence of God. This is the "catching up" which happened to the still living believers in AD 70. Their whole spiritual existence changed in the twinkling of an eye as Christ finished that work He had started. And this is resurrection, being taken from the state of separation from God (death) given to us by Adam, to being united to Him through the work of Christ.


3AM:
I am going to assume that you are aware of the Prophecy of the cleansing of the Sanctuary. (Daniel)

How does this 2300 day prophecy fit in with this doctrine?

You are saying that the fire CAUSED BY ROME in 70 CE is the fulfilment of the Cleansing of the Sanctuary AND the Second Coming of Christ?????

May I remind you what is IN THE PLACE of the Earthly Sanctuary that was destroyed in 70CE?

The Dome of the Rock. NOT a Catholic Church.

God Bless

 

[neal4christ]

Glancing on this last page, I see 70 AD being tossed around. Wasn't the book of Revelation written after that time? How does that fit in with this date that is being given?

Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

Jesus spoke of the Prophecy of Daniel:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Mar 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
Mar 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
Mar 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mar 13:18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The fulfillment of the prophecy that Jesus is speaking of in Daniel 9, took place in 70CE. This fulfillment is in the desecration of the Temple on earth. He gave a warning to those present to FLEE immediatly, and history tells us that they did, and they were saved. ROME is the one who desolated the temple.

Tell me, HOW the Roman Church is CHRIST?

HOW could the desolator be Christ?

These passages are being ignored to concoct this doctrine. Especially the LIGHTNING, and the TRUMPET, and the visible, audible return of Christ, IN THE CLOUDS.

Jesus said to NOT be decieved by those who say He has already come.

This doctrine is a deception.

You say that Christ CAME in 70CE, so then how is it possible that John wrote, from the Isle of Patmos, to which he was banished by Domitian, who we know sent him there between 95 to 96 CE, these words to the churches:

Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Jesus left this earth by rising up into the clouds and we are told how He will return:

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Why would John have written that JESUS said 'I come quickly' if He was ALREADY there?

John was there when Jerusalem was attacked.

He was 'their companion in the tribulation'. He saw it happen. HE knew that Jesus did not return in that event.

This doctrine, BLOWS MY MIND. It is one of the WORST false doctrines about the Second Coming of Christ I have ever seen.

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Glancing on this last page, I see 70 AD being tossed around. Wasn't the book of Revelation written after that time? How does that fit in with this date that is being given?

Neal

Knowing how much we disagree on certian points, it is amazing how like minded we really are.

Read my last post.

God Bless

 

[Born Again Catholic]

Those who rely on the date of 96 AD typically rely one one single quote from Irenaeus from about 180 AD. But there are problems in doing this.

First in the original greek this sentence can be interpreted to mean John had this vision during the reign of Domitian, as you suggest or it can be interpreted to mean that John had his vision (at some unspecified time in his life) and then lived on into the reign of Domitian, when he died. Obviously which ever way your bias is would probably influence how you would interpret the greek translation.

Even if you believe the translation which point to 96 ad you have problems. Irenaeus may have been a holy man but this man was not known for consistency retelling history with any accuracy. (ie in one document saying Jesus was 50 when he was crucified, that would change Christian understanding of the Gospel if believed). Knowing his previous capacity for mistakes why would you believe Irenaeus or his sources were accurate with information 74-120 years after the fact.

Why use the date of 96 AD to help define your theology, it is not part of Scripture, Sacred Tradition or historically proveable?

God Bless

[ February 15, 2003, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Born Again Catholic ]

 

[CatholicConvert]

QUESTION:
1 Thess. 4:16-18 says “the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” How could this be fulfilled already?

ANSWER:
One thing that needs to be mentioned right up front is that there is a tremendous similarity between the language here in this context (1 Thess. 4, 5) and Matt. 23-25 (esp. Matt. 24:29-31). The angels, trumpet and gathering are mentioned in Matt. 24. The angels, trumpet and catching-up are mentioned in 1 Thess. 4. We should always use the easier passages on a subject to help interpret the more difficult ones. In this case, Matt. 24 is the easier one. It is a matter of historical record (Josephus, Eusebius, Tacitus and the Talmud) that the trumpets, voices of angels and angelic activity were seen and heard in the time leading up to and during the destruction of Jerusalem. Unfortunately many Christians are just not aware of this. They are not being taught this by current (predominantly-futurist) clergy. The “catching-up” (1 Thess. 4:17) or “gathering” (Matt. 24:31) was accomplished when the faithful remnant of Jewish believers with the in-grafted Gentiles were transformed (and transferred) into Christ’s new spiritual Israel. This was accomplished at the same time the old fleshly-based Israel was dissolved at A.D. 70. The meeting-place is the heavenly places in Christ – the spiritual kingdom.

The word ‘shout’ as used in 1 Thess. 4:16 carries the meaning of a command, or order. When God’s wrath was poured out on fleshly Israel, the command went forth in heaven for the Lord Jesus to return even as He had promised He would. That there was also an earthly ‘shout’ is undoubtedly more than mere coincidence!

“... Nor can one imagine anything either greater or more terrible than this noise; for there was at once a shout of the Roman legions, who were marching all together, and a sad clamor of the seditious, who were now surrounded with fire and sword. The people also that were left above were beaten back upon the enemy, and under a great consternation, and made sad moans at the calamity they were under; the multitude also that was in the city joined in this outcry with those that were worn away by the famine, and their mouths almost closed, when they saw the fire of the holy house, they exerted their utmost strength, and broke out into groans and outcries again; Perea did also return the echo, as well as the mountains round about the city, and augmented the force of the entire noise...” (Josephus – see 2 Peter 3:10).

The ‘trump’ of God is thus defined (Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance - Greek Dictionary of the New Testament), as a vibration, reverberation, or ‘shaking’. This kind of language was used in the OT prophets quite often of God’s judgment being poured out on wicked nations. This time the judgment of God was poured out on the Old Covenant world, and shook its institutions to the ground and replaced them with the real spiritual things that had only been prefigured and foreshadowed by the Jewish temple system.

Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. (Isaiah 13:13)

The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. (Joel 3:16)

For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land. (Haggai 2:6)

Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. (Hebrews 12:26)

The vibrations of the destruction of O.T. Jerusalem reverberated throughout not only the kingdoms, nations and empires of the earth, but the heavens also (where the angels, principalities and powers are).

It is worth noting some more of Josephus’ statements in regard to the tremendous significance of this disruption in the affairs of the world:

“This was the end which Jerusalem came to by the madness of those that were for innovations; a city other wise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind.”

“...it had so come to pass, that our city Jerusalem had arrived at a higher degree of felicity than any other city under the Roman government, and yet at last fell into the sorest of calamities again. Accordingly it appears to me, that the misfortunes of all men, from the beginning of the world, if they be compared to these of the Jews, are not so considerable as they were.”

“Where as the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that ever were heard of; both of those wherein cities have fought against cities, or nations against nations.”

“That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world.” (Matt. 24:21; and Mk. 13:19).[

Premillenialism is an insult to the finished work of Christ, for it posits that the Old Covenant was never destroyed, the Jews will restore the old sacrificial system pointing to Christ, and that Christ could not keep His Church on earth from being overrun by the legions of hell.

Brother Ed

Oh, and BTW -- you can stop associating Preterism with the Catholic Church. It made its beginnings in the Church of Christ and is spreading fastest through that assembly as well as numerous reformed assemblies such as the Presbyterians. Catholics hardly know of it with the exception of a few noted scholars such as Scott Hahn.

 

[CatholicConvert]

QUESTION:
What evidence is there for a pre-70 date for the book of Revelation?

ANSWER:
The 96 AD date is the most common view today, though it wasn’t that way a century ago. The late 96 AD date has been shown by several writers to rest on very unstable ground. A lot of influential English and German (and a few American) scholars in the 1800’s and early 1900’s believed quite strongly that the book was written (and mostly or completely fulfilled) before A.D. 70. There are a few contemporary American theologians who believe and teach the early date as well (Max King, Jay Adams, Foy Wallace, Jr.; Franklin Camp; etc.). These are especially good sources. I highly recommend Milton S. Terry’s book Biblical Hermeneu-tics and J. S. Russell’s The Parousia. The comments in my book, What Happened In 70 AD? are pretty persuasive for an early date (at least that’s what a lot of people keep telling us). There is a good list and bibliography of other good sources in that booklet. There is a lot of internal evidence for an early date. Some of the passages in Revelation which point clearly to a date before A.D. 70 are Rev. 11:1, 2; 11:8 and 18:24.

Rev. 11:1, 2 seems to indicate that the Temple in Jerusalem was still standing when the book was written. It wouldn’t make much sense otherwise.

Rev. 11:8 indicates that “The Great City” was Jerusalem (“where also their Lord was crucified”). Jerusalem was also quite often compared “mystically” to Sodom and Egypt, by the Prophets, by Jesus, and by John as well.

And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. (Rev. 11:8)

And, the statements in Rev. 18:24 seem to identify the Great City even more clearly:

And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth. (emphasis mine, E.S.)

When this verse is compared to Luke 13:33ff, it is obvious that Jerusalem is the Great City under discussion here. It wouldn’t fit Rome or any other city. There is so much internal as well as external evidence for a pre-70 date. I also highly recommend reading Ken Gentry’s new book, Before Jerusalem Fell, for additional evidence of the pre-70 date.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Hey Bob!!

Since you distinctly dislike "papists" perhaps someone of the stature of say.....

JOHN OWEN

might have something to say to you..

The apostle makes a distribution of the world into heaven and earth, and saith they were destroyed with water, and perished. We know that neither the fabric nor substance of the one or other was destroyed, but only men that liveth on the earth; and the apostle tells us (ver. 7) of the heaven and earth that were then, and were destroyed by water, distinct from the heavens and the earth that were now, and were to be consumed by fire; and yet as to the visible fabric of heaven and earth they were the same both before the flood and in the apostle's time, and continue so to this day; when yet it is certain that the heavens and earth, whereof he spake, were to be destroyed and consumed by fire in that generation. We must, then, for the clearing of our foundation a little, consider what the apostle intends by the heavens and the earth in these two places.

' 1. It is certain that what the apostle intends by the world, with its heaven, and earth (vers. 5, 6), which was destroyed ; the same, or some-what of that kind, he intends by the heavens and the earth that were to be consumed and destroyed by fire (ver. 7) ; otherwise there would be no coherence in the apostle's discourse, nor any kind of argument, but a mere fallacy of words.

' 2. It is certain that by the flood, the world, or the fabric of heaven and earth, was not destroyed, but only the inhabitants of the world; and therefore the destruction intimated to succeed by fire is not of the substance of the heavens and the earth, which shall not be consumed until the last day, but of person or men living in the world.

'3. Then we must consider in what sense men living in the world are said to be the world, and the heavens and earth of it. I shall only insist on one instance to this purpose among many that may be produced: Isa. li. 15, 16. The time when the work here mentioned, of planting the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth, was performed by God was when He divided the sea (ver. 15) and gave the law (ver. 16), and said to Zion, Thou art my people; that is, when He took the children of Israel out of Egypt, and formed them in the wilderness into a church and state; then He planted the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth: that is, brought forth order, and government, and beauty from the confusion wherein before they were. This is the planting of the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth in the world. And since it is that when mention is made of the destruction of a state and government, it is in that language which seems to set forth the end of the world. So Isa. xxxiv. 4, which is yet but the destruction of the state of Edom. The like also is affirmed of the Roman Empire (Rev. vi. 14), which the Jews constantly affirm to be intended by Edom in the prophets. And in our Saviour Christ's prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem (Matt. xxiv.) He sets it out by expressions of the same importance. It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood.

' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state; for which I shall offer these two reasons, of many that might be insisted on from the text:-

'(1.) Because whatever is here mentioned was to have its peculiar influence on the men of that generation. He speaks of that wherein both the profane scoffers and those scoffed at were concerned, and that as Jews, some of them believing, others opposing, the faith. Now there was no particular concernment of that generation, nor in that sin, nor in that scoffing, as to the day of judgment in general ; but there was a peculiar relief for the one and a peculiar dread for the other at hand, in the destruction of the Jewish nation ; and, besides, an ample testimony both to the one and the other of the power and dominion of the Lord Jesus Christ, which was the thing in question between them.

'(2.) Peter tells them, that after the destruction and judgment that he speaks of (vers. 7-13), " We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth,' etc. They had this expectation. But what is that promise? Where may we find it? Why, we have it in the very words and letter, Isa. lxv. 17. Now, when shall this be that God shall create these new heavens and new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness? Saith Peter, " It shall be after the coming of the Lord, after that judgment and destruction of ungodly men, who obey not the gospel, that I foretell." But now it is evident from this place of Isaiah, with chap. lxvi. 21, 22, that this is a prophecy of Gospel times only; and that the planting of these new heavens is nothing but the creation of Gospel ordinances to endure for ever. The same thing is so expressed Heb. xii. 26-28.

This being the design of the place, I shall not insist longer on the context, but briefly open the words proposed, and fix upon the truth continued in them.

First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly.

There is no outward constitution nor frame of things in government or nations, but it is subject to a dissolution, and may receive it, and that in a way of judgment. If any might plead exemption, that, on many accounts, of which the apostle was discoursing in prophetical terms (for it was not yet time to speak it openly to all) might interpose for its share.'
Dr. Owen's Sermon on 2 Peter iii. 11. Works, folio, Reprinted 1721.

Did you "git that" or do I have to bring out the crayons and paper? "Heavens and earth" is a reference to the Old Covenant law/nation of Israel and the Temple worship. It has NOTHING ---N*O*T*H*I*N*G --- to do with the ball of earth we live upon and the sky above us.

The problem with Premillenialism is that you are 2000 years removed from the Jewish society and Old Covenantal context in which the apostles wrote. Thus, you do not KNOW that the term "heavens and earth" is part of a greater corpus of work called "Jewish apocalyptic language" and you don't care to investigate any to find out if anything else is true. Your preconceptions and prejuicial presuppositions are keeping you from investigating and coming to the deeper and richer meanings of the Scripture in a covenantal context.

The Jews reading St. Peter's work in the first century would have understood what he was talking about because they were immersed and raised in that language. We do not, yet we act as if we can just read the Scriptures and place our own understanding upon them without any reference to time, place, context, historical and grammatical understanding.

And then, to top it off, people read the New York Times and study the Middle East and interpret the Bible through that grid rather than the grid of proper grammatical/historical understanding.

Shhhhhhheeeeeesh!! Give me a break!!!

Brother Ed

 

[BobRyan]

Premillenialism is an insult to the finished work of Christ, for it posits that the Old Covenant was never destroyed, the Jews will restore the old sacrificial system pointing to Christ, and that Christ could not keep His Church on earth from being overrun by the legions of hell.

Brother Ed

The utter lack of Biblical support for the Amillenialist viewpoint had never fully been explained to me until I read this thread that so carefully dodges ENTIRE chapters pointing to the premillenial coming of Christ.

Notice that the Millenium IS ONLY mentioned in Rev 20 and YET the Rev 19,20,21 sequence is EXACTLY what Amillenial views most AVOID.

Fascinating!!

Another thing I did not realize was that the RCC was the sponsor of the Amillenialist views so prevalent in the early 1800's among ALL Christian groups.

And finally - this thread has also explained the historic "tendancy" towards "antisemitism" seen in Catholic countries. The statement above seems to be loaded with it and in part it is due to the fallacy of what it seems to think is the "Old Covenant".

How sad. And yet it explains a lot of the human misery we see in history as well as the ignorance about the Bible and the tendancy "not to believe the words of scripture" as in the case of Rev 19, 20, 21 - and in 1Thess 4 and even in Genesis 1.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Among the many fallacies proposed by our good brother Ed - none is greater than

The problem with Premillenialism is that you are 2000 years removed from the Jewish society and Old Covenantal context in which the apostles wrote. Thus, you do not KNOW that the term "heavens and earth" is part of a greater corpus of work called "Jewish apocalyptic language" and you don't care to investigate any to find out if anything else is true. Your preconceptions and prejuicial presuppositions are keeping you from investigating and coming to the deeper and richer meanings of the Scripture in a covenantal context.

As has "already been pointed out" in places like 2Peter 3 the "WORLD" was ALREADY destroyed ONCE by a flood. The LITERAL - OBVIOUS - EXPLICIT meaing of world wide destruction set in that context is "innescapable" and the chapter GOES ON to describe a SECOND destruction by fire - and using the terms "HEAVENs and Earth".

How devastating that exegetical look into 2Peter 3 was to the point that Ed seeks to establish. And yet "how true" it remains today.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

As Catholics appear to be very confused by the terms "Old Covenant" and "New Covenant" - I am starting a Thread on that point.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[CatholicConvert]

As has "already been pointed out" in places like 2Peter 3 the "WORLD" was ALREADY destroyed ONCE by a flood. The LITERAL - OBVIOUS - EXPLICIT meaing of world wide destruction set in that context is "innescapable" and the chapter GOES ON to describe a SECOND destruction by fire - and using the terms "HEAVENs and Earth".

How devastating that exegetical look into 2Peter 3 was to the point that Ed seeks to establish. And yet "how true" it remains today.

You didn't even READ the text by JOHN OWEN, did you?

How am I supposed to engage in an intelligent conversation when all that I post is summarily blown off by those with whom I am trying to converse?

Brother Ed

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Born Again Catholic:
Those who rely on the date of 96 AD typically rely one one single quote from Irenaeus from about 180 AD. But there are problems in doing this.

First in the original greek this sentence can be interpreted to mean John had this vision during the reign of Domitian, as you suggest or it can be interpreted to mean that John had his vision (at some unspecified time in his life) and then lived on into the reign of Domitian, when he died. Obviously which ever way your bias is would probably influence how you would interpret the greek translation.

Even if you believe the translation which point to 96 ad you have problems. Irenaeus may have been a holy man but this man was not known for consistency retelling history with any accuracy. (ie in one document saying Jesus was 50 when he was crucified, that would change Christian understanding of the Gospel if believed). Knowing his previous capacity for mistakes why would you believe Irenaeus or his sources were accurate with information 74-120 years after the fact.

Why use the date of 96 AD to help define your theology, it is not part of Scripture, Sacred Tradition or historically proveable?

God Bless

The date in question is WHEN WAS JOHN ON THE ISLE OF PATMOS?

Answer that. I read in a book, that Domitian was persecuting Christians from 95-96. It was there that this book placed John on Patmos.

When was he there?

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

Brother Ed,

Who is John Owen?

Did you see the 2 posts on the other page? You didn't respond.

THOSE were for YOU.

God Bless

 

[Born Again Catholic]

3Angelsmom

Anyone can write a book that says anything. As far as I have seen all these authors(even some catholic theologians) who produce hypothesizes to get at the the 95-96 ad date ultimately rely on the quote from Irenaeus to get there and tie it to Domitian's reign. If you have another way to get there conclusively please feel free to post it.

God Bless

PS Most days wife wife thinks she is three angels mom.

[ February 16, 2003, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Born Again Catholic ]

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Born Again Catholic:
3Angelsmom

Anyone can write a book that says anything. As far as I have seen all these authors(even some catholic theologians) who produce hypothesizes to get at the the 95-96 ad date ultimately rely on the quote from Irenaeus to get there and tie it to Domitian's reign. If you have another way to get there conclusively please feel free to post it.

God Bless

PS Most days wife wife thinks she is three angels mom.

Who was Irenauas, and why is his writing uncredible?

Why does she think that?> Do you have 3 kids?

 

[Carson Weber]

Who was Irenauas

St. Irenaeus succeeded St. Pothinus to become the second bishop of Lyons in Gaul (Modern day France) in 177 A.D. Earlier in his life he studied under St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrnea and Martyr. Considered one of the greatest theologians of the 2nd century, St. Irenaeus is best known for refuting the Gnostic heresies.

Link: Bio of St. Irenaeus
Link: His monumental work: Against the Heresies (Latin: Adversus Haereses)
(check out Book 3, Chapter 3)

 

[3AngelsMom]

Carson,

Was the date John was on Patmos in that?

I didn't see it.

God Bless

 

[jonathanbensaul]

Originally posted by show me:
Chrift:

I know that the SDA teaches that the papacy is the anti-Christ, but I didn't know there was a Lutheran teaching on this. Also, what differences are there between ELCA, LCMS, and WELS?

This might not be the right thread for this, but when you can, I would appreciate hearing from you.

I doubt that many Lutherans think that today, that's a remnant of strong anti-papist sentiment in the post-Reformation era.

Briefly, the Evangelical LCA is the result of the merger of several strands of Lutheranism in the US in the past 75 yrs. They ordain from both sexes and are more active with the social gospel.

The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod tends to fundamentalism, to a literal interpretation.

Both have administrative bishops and are liturgical.

Wisconsin is a relatively small area denomination.

 

[jonathanbensaul]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
QUESTION:
What evidence is there for a pre-70 date for the book of Revelation?

Check out Anchor Bible vol. 38 Revelation, by Dr. J.M. Ford, Emerita Professor of NT Theology at Notre Dame.
Dr. Ford makes a very persuasive argument for an early date--it was written by the Prophet John, probably while in Herod's prison. It was enhanced by a later disciple, then it and the later Seven Churches were edited into one work by a Christian redactor, probably in Ephesus which was common ground for disciples of both The Baptist and Christ.