Millenial Views Among Non Baptist

[BobRyan]

Posted by ShowMe I know that the SDA teaches that the papacy is the anti-Christ, but I didn't know there was a Lutheran teaching on this. Also, what differences are there between ELCA

#1. The Catholic church started this practice long before Luther adopted it. Popes would label each other as "anti-Christ" and so also would the Cardinals of rival popes refer to the other Pope as "anti-Christ" - in some cases it would be the SAME group of Cardinals that Elected the Pope - that later declared him to be "anti-Christ".

#2. Luther later adopted this title for the Pope - but in his early opposition to Catholic errors and attempts to reform the church - he did not use this classic Catholic identification of a bad Pope.

(Recall that Luther was himself - Catholic).

It is odd that the Catholic church should have been so emphatic about applying this term to the Pope in past centuries.

In like manner - the Catholic church in its commentaries on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II is very explicit about the "Adoration of the Eucharist" being "idolatry" IF ( as Protestants claim) - the bread is NOT in fact the literal flesh of God when eaten.

The Catholic church freely admits that the adoration given - is idolotry if this is not God Himself being consumed by humans.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Chrift]

I didn't know there was a Lutheran teaching on this

Many others before and after Luther have come to this conclusion.

Luther's writings on this began in December 1518. In a letter he writes:

“I shall send you some
of my shorter writings..in order that you might see whether my conjecture is correct, namely that the true Antichrist, as Paul portrays him (2 Thess. 2:3 ff.) is ruling at the Roman court...

His writings continued throughout the years as he is convinced of his findings. Finally in 1542 he writes:

“And I do not regard Mohamed as the Antichrist; he is too clumsy and has a recognizable black devil, who can deceive neither faith nor reasons and is like a heathen who persecutes Christendom from outside, as the Romans and other heathen have done. For how can he, who rejects the Holy Scripture, deceive a Christian, (also rejecting) both the Old and the New Testament, also Baptism, The Sacrament, absolution or forgiveness of sins, Lord’s Prayer, Creed, Ten Commandments, estimates holy marriage as nothing, and teaches murder and unchastity? But the Pope in our midst is the true Antichrist, he has the subtle, beautiful, resplendent devil, he sits right in the midst of Christendom, permits the Holy Scripture, Baptism, The
Sacrament, absolution, the Catechism, holy marriage to remain. As St. Paul says, he sits, that is, he rules, in the temple of God (2 Thess.2: 4) that is, in the Church or Christendom, namely in the midst of a people
that is baptized, has the Sacrament, the absolution, the Holy Scripture and the Word of God. And yet he rules so masterfully that he at the same time has his filth, his Koran, his human doctrine elevated in such a manner above the Word of God that the Christians have no value in their Baptism, Sacrament keys, prayer, Gospel, and Christ in themselves, but feel constrained to be saved, by their own works .... This devil does not deceive those who are willing to be deceived, as under Mohammed, but those who would not like to be deceived yea, the elect of God, Matt. 24:24. For he continues to use all these names, God,Christ, God’s Son, Holy Ghost, Church, Baptism, Sacrament, and all things that Christians believe and teach, and Mohamed rejects. And yet he, in keeping these names and having a show of truth strikes truth to the ground with his Koran, as St. Paul says (2 Tim.3: 5), Having a form of godliness, but denying the
power thereof.”

And finally in 1545 he writes:

“Here you may read for yourself in 2 Thess. 2:4 and see what St. Paul means when he says
that the Antichrist is sitting in the temple of God, that is, in the Church of Christ, as though he were Christ and God Himself, as his hypocrites blaspheme and say: The Pope is not a mere man, but a person composed of God and man, even as Christ alone is. And what a man of sin is you can easily learn from the preceding sections, since he is not only a sinner in himself but has filled the world, and in particular the temple of God, with sins, false worship of God, blasphemy, disbelief, and lies, and thus is also a son
of perdition, that is, one who has led himself with innumerable souls into hell and eternal damnation. The Turk also deceives the world, but he does not sit in the temple of God, does not bear the name of Christ and of St. Peter, but attacks Christendom from outside and boasts of his enmity against it. But this internal disturber claims to be a friend, wants to be called father, and yet is twice as bad as the Turk. That is an abomination of desolation or destruction, an idol who against Christ destroys all that Christ has built and has given us. Oh how terrible it is to see and hear of such abomination."

 

[Chrift]

As for differences between ELCA, LCMS, and WELS -

ELCA denies the inerrancy of Scripture, the virgin birth of Christ, and that salvation is only through faith in Christ. I know there are other differences, but these are just some big ones.

I don't know much about LCMS. From what little I have read I know their teachings are a lot closer to WELS then the ELCA.

 

[3AngelsMom]

What about the YMCA, the UCMJ, and the ROTC?

All those acronyms are giving me flashbacks.

ARGGG Basic Training.

 

[Chrift]

LOL!

ELCA= Evangelical Luthern Church in America

LCMS = Luthern Church-Missouri Synod

WELS = Wisconsin Evangelical Luthern Synod

 

[Kamoroso]

John 5:28-29 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.-

It is clear from the verses above, that both the wicked, and the saved will be resurrected. One, to the resurrection of life, and the other to the resurrection of damnation. The next question to be asked, is when, will these resurrections take place, and do they occur at the same time? The scriptures answer both of these questions. -

1Thes 4:13-18 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.-

1 Cor 15:20-26 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.-

The scriptures above point out that Christ’s followers will be raised at His coming. They will meet Christ in the clouds, and will be with Him forever. Verse 14 says- “ 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” If we believe that Christ rose from the dead with a body, and went to heaven to be with His Father, then we can know, that he will do the same for us. We will be brought to heaven, body and spirit, with Christ, and will ever be with Him. This is the beginning of the thousand years reign with Christ. So what about the wicked, what happens to them at Christ’s coming? Let us examine the scriptures to see what Christ’s second coming means to the wicked.-

2 Pet 3:7 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.-

2 Pet 3:10-13 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.-

Zeph 1:14-17 14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their
flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.-

Rev 6:14-17 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?-

The wicked, and all of their works, will be destroyed, by the brightness of Christ’s coming. When the Lord Returns, those who are Christ’s will go with Him to heaven, to reign for one thousand years. On the other hand, the wicked will be destroyed, along with all of the works of this world, at His coming. This is why Satan cannot deceive the nations any more during the thousand years. There are no nations, or people to deceive during this thousand year period. The Devil is bound to this desolated planet for one thousand years, with no one to deceive, because all the wicked have perished. He will be left to ponder the results of his own workings. -

Rev 20:1-3 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.-

Rev 20:4-6 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.-

Again, those who are Christ’s, reign with him during this thousand years. However, the rest of the dead, that is the wicked who perished at Christ’s coming, live not again until the thousand years is finished ( verse 5 ). They did not take part in the first resurrection which took place at Christ’s coming, they are not blessed and holy, and they will die the second death ( verse 6 ). The wicked will take part in the second resurrection, which takes place when the new Jerusalem comes down to the earth at the end of the thousand years. It is at this time also, that Satan is loosed, and allowed to deceive the nations again ( verse 3 ). Of course, now Satan will have people to deceive again, because the wicked will have been raised in order to face their judgment, and die the second death. Satan and his followers will surround the city to attack it, but God will devour them with eternal fire.-

Rev 20:7-9 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.-

It is at the end of the thousand year period, that the New Jerusalem descends upon the earth. All the saved will be in it. When the wicked try to take the city, God will destroy them by fire. At this time, God will create a new heaven, and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. Sin and it’s originator, Satan, will be eradicated, never to appear again.-

Rev 21:9-10 9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,-

Rev 21:22-24 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

God bless. Bye for now. Your brother in Christ, Keith.

 

[jonathanbensaul]

Originally posted by Chrift:
As for differences between ELCA, LCMS, and WELS -

ELCA denies the inerrancy of Scripture, the virgin birth of Christ, and that salvation is only through faith in Christ. I know there are other differences, but these are just some big ones.

What do you base this erroneous information upon? Check the statement of faith on the official website:
http://www.elca.org/co/faith.html

 

[Chrift]

Sorry, I hate cut and paste just like most everyone, but to address your question in the little time that I have I have little choice. This is taken from a letter froms WELS to a ELCA pastor who raised the same question...

..."We believe that the public teaching of a church body is expressed not only by its constitution but by what its theologians teach, by what its publishing house publishes, by what its periodicals say, and by what its pastors preach and teach. Casual intrusion of different doctrines into a church body does not immediately become its publicly accepted teaching, but a church becomes responsible for all teaching which it tolerates, especially that which it publishes, and that which it leaves undisciplined.

My basis for the belief that the "accepted public teachings of the ELCA departs from Scripture in almost every doctrine" is based on regular reading of all the ELCA periodicals, extensive use and review of Fortress-Augsburg publications and commentaries, a study of ELCA preaching, and contacts with ELCA theologians in SBL and other Forums. I did not say everyone in the ELCA agrees on these issues or even that all these views are expressed in statements adopted by a church assembly. I said that because the ELCA accepts a great deal of doctrinal diversity, the accepted, tolerated public teaching of the ELCA departs from Scripture and that denials of miracles, the virgin birth, and salvation only through Christ occur in the ELCA. It is the unscriptural diversity that we find so alarming.

In the fuller treatment of this topic on pages 29-84 of the book WELS and Other Lutherans I document my reasons for the belief expressed briefly in the NWL article. There I distinguish clearly between three levels or types of teaching in the ELCA: the official confession as expressed by the constitution and other church resolutions, the public teachings of the church's theologians as expressed in books like Braaten and Jensen's Christian Dogmatics, and the popular teaching as expressed in the church's periodicals, instructional materials, and preaching. In that work there is extensive quotation from the published works of the ELCA and its predecessor bodies that led me to the conclusions expressed in the two sentences you questioned. The book What's Going on Among the Lutherans, also available from Northwestern Publishing House has page after page of direct quotations from ELCA sources which challenge or reject such miracles as the virgin birth and many others.

I am sure we disagree about bow much doctrinal diversity Scripture allows and whose position is scriptural-that of WELS or that of the ELCA. We also disagree about the responsibility of a church to preserve doctrinal unity through the exercise of church discipline. But no one who would objectively compare the publications of Northwestern Publishing House and Fortress-Augsburg could doubt that there is a great difference between the public teaching of WELS and the ELCA at virtually every point of Scripture. My personal contacts with ELCA theologians have always revealed the same. When I have been on panels with ELCA theologians contrasting the views of WELS and the ELCA, they have disagreed drastically with my views, but they have never questioned my assessment of the degree of difference between us. In fact, they have usually regarded my views as so many light-years away from the position of the ELCA that there was little point even paying any attention to them. As a result, they focused their attention on comparing the ELCA and the LCMS. Do you honestly believe that a theologian who agreed with the doctrinal position of WELS would be allowed to teach in an ELCA seminary? No, the gap would simply be too huge. I have never left a meeting with ELCA theologians without a painful awareness of the width of that gap.

There was a time when some of the predecessor bodies of the ELCA and WELS were in fellowship. Then there was a time when they were separated by such intra-Lutheran debates as lodges, pulpit and altar fellowship, election, and so on. Sad to say, those days are gone. It would be extremely difficult for representatives of the ELCA and WELS to have meaningful theological discussions because we have such radically different views of the nature of Scripture. I wish this were not true, but an objective comparison of the public teaching of the two churches does not allow any other conclusion. This causes us great sadness, but the evidence of this sad reality is plain. Our paths have diverged so greatly that even our basic approach to theology and to doctrinal unity is very different."

God Bless