millinial salvation

Take your time, the discussion is good for me.

 

First, the “judgment” of God before the flood.

1) Says it one time…."Then the Lord said, "My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for he is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years." (Ge 6:3)(judgment declared on man)

2) Says it a second time…"So the Lord said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the ground, man and beast and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." (Judgment on the unjust confirmed along with the animal) "And Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord." (Righteous judgment on the just)(Ge 6:7)

3) Says it a third time…”And God said to Noah, “I have determined to make an end of all flesh; for the earth is filled with violence through them; behold, I will destroy them “with the earth.” (Judgment on the unjust and all living things confirmed but with the earth added) (Ge 6:13) And again, to Noah he says; “But I will establish my covenant with you; and you shall come into the ark, you, your sons, your wife, and your sons’ wives with you…”(Ge 6:18) (Righteous judgment on the just confirmed) (Ge 6:18) “Then the Lord said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen that you are righteous before me in this generation.” (Ge 7:1) “Go into the ark”….how God would separate him and save them. (The ark is actually a reference to Christ – Christ was always “the ark of the covenant, our “ark” of safety)

Next, the “execution” of the judgment and the rescue of the just, as the same event and on the same day.
(Note carefully that there is NO period of time between the events!)

1) First, God tells him when he is going to exercise his judgment. “For in seven days I will send rain upon the earth forty days…” And Noah did all that the Lord had commanded him.” (Ge 7: 4-5)

2) Next, God does it “when” he says he is going to do it. “And after seven days the waters of the flood came upon the earth.” (Ge 7:10) And he does it ON the day he says he is going to do it….”on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened…On the very same day Noah and [everything went into the ark] as God had commanded him; the Lord shut him in.”(Ge 7:11-17)

And therefore, God exercises BOTH his “judgment” of the unjust (by the rains) AND his “salvation” of the “just” (by shutting the door Himself. That is the picture Jesus is trying to tell us to see when he emphasizes that the last judgment of mankind and the salvation of the saints will be a onetime event and will be on the same day.

(And, this is also a picture of how Christ will separate the sheep from the goats, the two in one bed, the two women grinding together, the wheat from the tares in on the last day.)

Now, if you get this picture that Jesus in Luke 17, is trying to talk to us about how he is going to do it in the same manner for the next judgment of the unjust, salvation of the saints, and cleansing of the earth with fire, and the saints being placed into the heavenly city, the New Jerusalem instead of back on earth as Noah was placed, you then realize that there cannot be any 1,000 years apart and that the 1,000 years is figurative from the Cross to the Second Coming.

Now, if you accept that then you realize what next has to be truth – and that is that Christ Kingdom is not of this world as he also said in Luke 17:20-21 “Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them, ‘The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, ‘Lo, here it is!’ or ‘There !’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” (or within you)” Also, as in John 18:36; “My kingship is not of this world; if my kingship were of this world, my servants would fight,…”Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (Jn 3:3) “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

 

You still have not dealt with the text in Rev. 19. Is v.11-21 speaking of Christ's second coming? If so then we need to move into the next portion of the vision which is the Millinial Kingdom. What you have done with the Luke 17 text is read in meaning from the illustration. There is no referance to the resurrection or the judgements. We have to pick up the rest from the rest of Scripture. Please do not seperate this gospel account from the rest of the Scripture. We will only get faulty interpretation.

 

Jeff, I think we need to start over again since I think you missed my point. My point was that NT doctrine must always “come out of Christ teaching” that He Himself taught while on earth because it was THAT teaching that he gave to the disciple to;

I do not “start” with Genesis because it points forward to the Cross. I don’t start with Revelation either, because it is so highly symbolical that, as I’ve said before, two thousand years of many, many various writers have come up with hundreds and hundreds of various interpretations of which there is no consensus of agreement upon to any large degree enough to be dogmatic about any single interpretation. You want to start with symbolism. I won’t, because it is unscriptural to do so. Even pre-mill La Haye says this;

I was under the assumption that we were going to examine the primary texts of Christ’s literal and contextual words FIRST! I believe you said this last night;

So, I did and I posted these reasons why I would not start with the Book of Revelation;

However, your next post was this;

I must have missed what you were saying for the most part. First, my post on Luke 17 was there all the time – it was on the previous page. However, it appears from the above that you simply wanted to stay in the symbolism. But, as far as my perspective goes, the top paragraph is what my perspective is on how NT doctrine is supposed to be determined and adopted. If controversial doctrine is up for debate about ANY topic, one should ALWAYS go back to the original teacher HIMSELF and filter it through what he said while on earth because as the great commission says; “…teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.” Absolutely, nothing that the apostles taught was new or in addition to what is in the 4 gospels. Therefore, I don’t start in the OT, bypass the gospels or the epistles and then jump over to Revelation for NT doctrine.

Since you couldn’t find Luke 17 and the point that I was trying to say in it, I will post it again for you to examine a little closer;

Therefore, in my next post, I posted this request of you and it still stands….

However, as in your next post, it appears you still seem to get hung up on developing your doctrine on symbolism instead of language that my 8 year old nephew can figure out because he hasn’t been taught a “theory” that has only been around since 1830.

First, what is OP? Secondly, I couldn’t figure out if you had even read Luke 17 or the posts about Luke 17 or not when you said “But other than trying to implyhow the judgment happens in this text, (what text?)…we stop short here of the actual event. Then you move on into the symbolism of Rev again.

So, I posted the example of the flood and Noah as it is the historical example of a completed work all the way through and on the “whole earth” whereas Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah is a partial picture, on a local area and ‘some’ of the unjust as well as ‘some’ of the just. God chose to do a mini-example because it was his prophetic example of His future fulfillment at the end of the world as he is warning us about beforehand in Luke 17. What you should be seeing is “separation of the just and the unjust” in Luke and Genesis. Those historical examples are reflected throughout Jesus’ teachings in the parable of the wheat and the tares for starters. So, with this in mind, I will post it again;

Yet again, in your next post, you don’t even acknowledge anything about what Christ has to say concerning the text of Luke or Genesis at all as this was your post;

Instead, you charge me with separating the gospel account from the rest of Scripture when that is not what I have done at all! I must say that it really is what you are doing. When you say “There is no reference to the resurrection or the judgments” then I must say that you could not have read them or did not read them with a desire to know truth. Christ taught by providing historical example and telling about separation and judgment throughout his ministry. He constantly gave examples of the separation of the just from the unjust in that would take place at the end of time. And you can’t have separation of the just and the unjust without a resurrection of all mankind first! Separation of the just and the unjust IS judgment! Those examples are of RESURRECTION AND JUDGMENT and how it will be a ONE TIME EVENT to be done on the LAST DAY as in none of his parables does he teach a separation or a judgment with 1,000 years in between them! He did it with the historical examples and with parables.

Now, I think you have enough to chew over and pray about for a bit. I’ll be praying for you too.

 

DeafPosttrib: "There is only two classes according to the Bible."

According to which part of the Bible.
I know a verse in the Bible that talks about THREE classes
of people during the current age:

1 Corinthians 10:32 (KJV1769):
Give none offence, neither to the JEWS,
nor to the GENTILES, nor to the CHURCH OF GOD.

DeafPosttrib: "No excuse for you to read whole Matthew
chapter 13, what Christ talking about"

I have. There is nothing there preculding all the teachings
of pretrib, post-trib, pre-wrath, or mid-trib raptures.
And i have no reason to believe that your understanding of
the scripture is better than that of my
pretrib, post-trib, pre-wrath, or mid-trib friends.

Trailblazer: "THIS IS ABSOLUTELY BIZZARRE!!!!!"

Maybe like DPT "Your logical does not make sense to me."
At least i give it a try to explain what i'm saying. I still
have no attemt by a peterist to tell me where i'm at.
Peterists and a-mills cannot tell me where i'm at nor what
i'm supposed to be doing. One preterist mumbled something about
"dying". Sorry, i'm not dying today, i need something better
than that. YEs, i saw your smilie faces, so here are some
of mine:

 

Trailblazer: //Look at Noah and the flood. God saved
the "just" and punished the "wicked" in ONE event.//

Two events:
1. The flood which punished the wicked
2. the ark which saved the just

 

IF two things are different, then
they are not the same.
All the following statements can
be deduced from are or said in
the Holy Bible. I have cleary specified
the differences. Note the number 5 is
not sacred but is the number of different
judgements discussed in this writing.

Please do NOT ignore this.
You cannot argue agisnt this as a whole
by saying "it is wrong". How is it wrong.
God has comissioned me to discuss these
DIFFERENT judgemnents of His, please do
not ignore God's message for you today.

--------------------------------
Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

5. Great White Throne judgement
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

Oh, here comes the Pharisees!

You think I can't figure out what you're doing Ed? BTW, I never take your posts seriously. Most of it is jibberish.

 

Trailblazer: "You think I can't figure out what you're doing Ed?"

Yep that is what i think.
No, you don't know what i'm doing.

Trailblazer: "BTW, I never take your posts seriously.
Most of it is jibberish."

Psalm 83:1-3 (HCSB):
"God, do not keep silent.
Do not be deaf, God; do not be idle.
2 See how Your enemies make an uproar;
those who hate You have acted arrogantly.
3 They devise clever schemes against Your people;
they conspire against Your treasured ones."

The "parable of the weeks in the field"
in Matthew 13:24-30 (HCSB)
says the seed planter will tell the reapers
"Gather the weeds FIRST and tie them in bundles to burn
them, but store the wheat in my barn".

When Jesus explains the parable, there is in term "first".
Jesus explains this parable in
Matthew 13: 37-43. There is no reason to force the
harvest of the evil first, especially if another passage
has it last. Revelation 20 is specifically clear, the
evil are judged AFTER the just; it is not wrong to assume
that the evil are harvested after the just.

In another parable in Matthew 13 at Matthew 13:47-50
our Lord Jesus discusses good fish and bad fish caught
up in a net. This parable shows the dispasition
of the good fish before the bad fish "gathered the good fish
into containers, but then threw out the worthless ones".

In neither parable does it seem worthwhile to
ADD to the saying an order dealilng with the good
and the evil. In fact, such an addition is prohibited by
Revelation 22:18. God will deal with BOTH the good and the
evil at some future time NOT in this age.

 

You just proved my point. This is jibberish denial of God's Word.


God spoke 3 times beforehand(Ge 6:3,5,13)
The "just" went into the ark (7:15)...(picture of our salvation/separation -picture of the resurrection on the last day,
The Lord Himself shut the door (7:16...(picture of his appearing/separation of just and unjust - picture of separating the wheat from the tares on the last day),
God brought the rains(7:11)(sign of judjment/cleansing-fire next time)
destruction of the unjust (sign of eternal punishment at the end of the age on the last day(7:21)

THAT HE DID ALL ON ONE DAY! "On the VERY SAME day Noah ...entered the ark" the rains came! - picture of FIRE coming on the last day in the future)

God told them to leave the ark on renewed earth (8:15)(sign of our entrance into the Holy City, the New Jerusalem)

 

Maybe the challenge is too simple for you,
maybe to complex?
Look up "DAY" in the dictionary. Paper
dictionaries are usually more complete
than on-line dictionaries.
There are over a dozen definitions of
DAY in some dictionaries. Which one is
mean in which verse. Look up "day" as
a word study.

Of course God dealt with the evil and good
in Noah's "day". Noah's day was 600 years
long.

 

[ January 21, 2005, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: trailblazer ]

 

Since this message was last posted, there appeared to be flooding afterwards so I am re-posting it. Hopefully, Ed will respect my right to communicate without trying to hide it.

I do not “start” with Genesis because it points forward to the Cross. I don’t start with Revelation either, because it is so highly symbolical that, as I’ve said before, two thousand years of many, many various writers have come up with hundreds and hundreds of various interpretations of which there is no consensus of agreement upon to any large degree enough to be dogmatic about any single interpretation. You want to start with symbolism. I won’t, because it is unscriptural to do so. Even pre-mill La Haye says this;

I was under the assumption that we were going to examine the primary texts of Christ’s literal and contextual words FIRST! I believe you said this last night;

So, I did and I posted these reasons why I would not start with the Book of Revelation;

However, your next post was this;

I must have missed what you were saying for the most part. First, my post on Luke 17 was there all the time – it was on the previous page. However, it appears from the above that you simply wanted to stay in the symbolism. But, as far as my perspective goes, the top paragraph is what my perspective is on how NT doctrine is supposed to be determined and adopted. If controversial doctrine is up for debate about ANY topic, one should ALWAYS go back to the original teacher HIMSELF and filter it through what he said while on earth because as the great commission says; “…teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.” Absolutely, nothing that the apostles taught was new or in addition to what is in the 4 gospels. Therefore, I don’t start in the OT, bypass the gospels or the epistles and then jump over to Revelation for NT doctrine.

Since you couldn’t find Luke 17 and the point that I was trying to say in it, I will post it again for you to examine a little closer;

Therefore, in my next post, I posted this request of you and it still stands….

However, as in your next post, it appears you still seem to get hung up on developing your doctrine on symbolism instead of language that my 8 year old nephew can figure out because he hasn’t been taught a “theory” that has only been around since 1830.

First, what is OP? Secondly, I couldn’t figure out if you had even read Luke 17 or the posts about Luke 17 or not when you said “But other than trying to implyhow the judgment happens in this text, (what text?)…we stop short here of the actual event. Then you move on into the symbolism of Rev again.

So, I posted the example of the flood and Noah as it is the historical example of a completed work all the way through and on the “whole earth” whereas Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah is a partial picture, on a local area and ‘some’ of the unjust as well as ‘some’ of the just. God chose to do a mini-example because it was his prophetic example of His future fulfillment at the end of the world as he is warning us about beforehand in Luke 17. What you should be seeing is “separation of the just and the unjust” in Luke and Genesis. Those historical examples are reflected throughout Jesus’ teachings in the parable of the wheat and the tares for starters. So, with this in mind, I will post it again;

Yet again, in your next post, you don’t even acknowledge anything about what Christ has to say concerning the text of Luke or Genesis at all as this was your post;

Instead, you charge me with separating the gospel account from the rest of Scripture when that is not what I have done at all! I must say that it really is what you are doing. When you say “There is no reference to the resurrection or the judgments” then I must say that you could not have read them or did not read them with a desire to know truth. Christ taught by providing historical example and telling about separation and judgment throughout his ministry. He constantly gave examples of the separation of the just from the unjust in that would take place at the end of time. And you can’t have separation of the just and the unjust without a resurrection of all mankind first! Separation of the just and the unjust IS judgment! Those examples are of RESURRECTION AND JUDGMENT and how it will be a ONE TIME EVENT to be done on the LAST DAY as in none of his parables does he teach a separation or a judgment with 1,000 years in between them! He did it with the historical examples and with parables.

Now, I think you have enough to chew over and pray about for a bit. I’ll be praying for you too.</font>[/QUOTE]

 

Trailblazer,

I have read your post and you seem to think I have not acknowledged the Luke 17 passage. I have. The Illustrations given by Jesus POINT to your conclusion, but the passage as a whole does not speak of a ressurection or the specifics of the judgement you are talking about. The Illustrations of Noah and Lot are not the main point, they are illustrations. The words "just as" show us to pay attention, you are right about that, but He goes on to explain the point in the remainder of the text (Luke 17 to be specific).As He speaks of the two in the bed and the two grinding, He does not speak specifically of a judgement, and there is no referrance here to the Resurrection. If you want to talk about this text then do so, but don't ask me to stay in this text and then add things for your own arguments. This passage does not disprove the Millinial Kingdom. The Kingdom is not part of the events spoken of here.

I will say it again.

1. You say Luke 17 is speaking of the second coming. Correct?

2. If that is true, we MUST take all of Scripture to determine these events. This would take us to other places, which includes Rev. 19. Correct?

Now, Is there a ressurection mentioned in either Luke 17 or Rev 19? No. So leave the ressurection part out of this.

Is there a judgement spoken of in either of these passages? Yes both of them speak of a judgement. The Judgement of Luke 17 is implied by the Illustrations, the one of Rev. 19 is specific.

Let's stop there for now. Comments?

 

"For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, SO WILL BE THE SON OF MAN BE IN HIS DAY." (Luke 17:24) He then proceeds to say, in essence, "Look at the example of the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah, they are your literal and historical pictures of the future."

One taken from same bed- and one left..."ON THAT DAY" (VERSE 31)
One taken from two grinding together - and one left..."ON THAT DAY" (VERSE 31)

"For you yourselves know perfectly that 'the day of the Lord' so comes as a thief in the night." (1 Th 5:2)

"But 'the Day of the Lord'will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat." (2 Peter 3:10)

DAY OF JUDGMENT
"But the heavens and the earth which now exist are kept in store by the same word, reserved for fire until 'the day of judgment and perdition' of ungodly men.

"Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the 'day of judgment that for that city" (Mt 10:15)

"Martha said to Him, 'I know that he will rise again in the resurrection AT THE LAST DAY.'"

"Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's AT HIS COMING." (1 Cor 15:23)

"And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him AT HIS COMING." (1 Jn 2:28)

"So it will be AT THE CLOSE OF THE AGE. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous, and throw them into THE FURNACE OF FIRE; there men will weep and gnash their teeth." (Mt 13:49)

"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. BEFORE him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and He will place the sheep at his right hand , but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, "Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepare for you from the foundation of the world;...Then he will say to those at His left hand, 'Depart from me, you curse, into the eternal FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels;...and they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Oh, please, please tell me where you find a thousand years between these events!!!!

You have appearing, separation and eternal life for the righteous - judgment and punishment all on the same day of his appearing!!!!

If you cannot see this you have a most serious problem!

 

You haven't exhausted the references. You are ignoring the Rev. passage. Also, taking it back to old testiment passages, where do you find a 2000 + yr. seperation between the first and second coming? You don't. Also , can you show how "Second Coming" "Day of Judgement" Day of the Son of Man" are all the same reference. You have taken afew passages. Now look at the rest.You have also left the passage you wanted to stay on, which still has no referance to the resurrection or direct reference to it being the final judgement.

 

Again, you want to start in Revelation, go back to the Old Testament and deny the words of Christ in the Gosples and the apostles in the Epistles. You are intellectually dishonest and scripturally as well!

I'm done with you and this board. Talking to people who have a heart of stone is like talking to the JW's!

 

Now you have attacked me. My intention was not to start with those passages. You have began to jump all over. I want to deal with text. If you are done that is fine, but don't attack my spirituallity sir. I have been very careful not to attack you personally.

 

Maybe the Holy Spirit is trying to speak to you, then?

What I said to you was that "You are intellectually dishonest and scripturally [dishonest] as well!

I said you have a heart of stone - absolutely! If you deny the obvious in scripture and prefer the symbolical instead, then your eyes and ears are not set on Christ's clear words.

To say that talking to a JW is the same at talking to a hardened Christian is the truth. You can lay out scripture after scripture to them until doomsday but they have their canned answers too - just as pre-mills have gotten their canned answers from Darby, Scofield, Dallas Theo and Tim LaHaye. But it's a "new" gospel since 1830 appearing IN THESE LAST DAYS! Choose whom you will follow!

[ January 21, 2005, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: trailblazer ]