Minimum wage-vs-Military wage ...

[righteousdude2]

I cam across this information in an e-mail sent to me. While I agree that the author (unknown) has a point, they did not consider the perks of being in the military, and those perks would bring up the seemingly low wage considerably. That is if you are in the military, you get housing, food, uniforms, travel expenses, to name a few!

Still, a burger flipper isn't being deployed and placed in harm's way, so I do see both sides of this argument. HOW ABOUT YOU? Would giving into these demands for higher minimum wage be an insult to our service members? Or is it fair?

Low military pay was not mentioned in the State of the Union speech. Increasing the minimum wage was.
Hamburgers or minimum wage for those fast food employees striking for $15.00 an hour, let's do some math:

At $15.00 an hour Johnny fry-boy would make $31,200 annually.
An E1 (Private) in the military makes $18,378.00 annually.
An E5 (Sergeant) with 8 years of service only makes $35,067.00 annually.

So you're telling me, Latisha McBurgerflipper, that you deserve as much as those kids getting shot at, deploying for months in hostile environments, and putting their collective butts on the line every day protecting you.
Here's the deal, Baconator, you are working in a job designed for a kid in high school who is learning how to work and earning enough for gas, fun, and hanging out with your equally goofy high school pals. If you have chosen this as your life-long profession, you have failed. If you don't want minimum wage, don't have minimum skills.

 

[Salty]

and now for the real facts

E-1......................................E-5/8 years
18,792........basic pay...............35,877
12,708........housing..................14,148
4,416.........meals......................4,416
35,916........total........................54,441
3,000......Tax advantage...........3,500
38,916..........est total..................54,941
(no tax is paid on housing or meals) ( estamited amount)
additional benefits
Family Separation......250/month
While in a Combat zone
Combat pay................225/month
+ all pay is tax free (including re-up pay)
In addition, members may put up to 10,000 into an account at 10% interest

Also, military members have totally free medical/dental care
Dependents have an excellent medical plan

In addition, several other benefits for military personnel ie, free basic legal assistance, and ect


Other special pay (non-taxable)

Any active duty personel - can you give an update on this

 

[righteousdude2]

and now for the real facts

E-1..............basic pay.................E-5/8 years
18,792........basic pay...............35,877
12,708........housing..................14,148
4,416.........meals......................4,416
35,916........total........................54,441
3,000......Tax advantage...........3,500
38,916..........est total..................54,941
(no tax is paid on housing or meals) ( estamited amount)
additional benefits
Family Separation......250/month
While in a Combat zone
Combat pay................225/month
+ all pay is tax free (including re-up pay)
In addition, members may put up to 10,000 into an account at 10% interest

Also, military members have totally free medical/dental care
Dependents have an excellent medical plan

In addition, several other benefits for military personnel ie, free basic legal assistance, and ect


Other special pay (non-taxable)

Any active duty personel - can you give an update on this

Thanks Salty! That is the kind of information I was looking for! I guess, your stats show mikitary pay and benefits to be preety good, if you don't mind being shot at!

So are you stating that you are for higher/increased entry level pay for civialians at burger joints?

 

[Rob_BW]

Add in post 9/11 GI Bill. 4 years of tuition and books plus housing allowance at the E5 rate. You can leverage 4 years of work into 8 years of living expenses.

I'd say the biggest loss of wealth for military families is the effect of all of the moving on the spouse's career.

Non-managerial fast food jobs and being a private in the military are both entry level jobs, not careers.

 

[Salty]

So are you stating that you are for higher/increased entry level pay for civilians at burger joints?

Not at ALL!!! A job should pay what it is worth.
In addition, there is a second side. A minimum wage job should only call for minimum notice when quitting - two or three working days is sufficient..

Want a living wage - find a job with more responsibility.

 

[Revmitchell]

You guys don't get it. For liberals raising the minimum wage is not about getting more money into the hands of the workers. It is about taking money out of the hands of business owners and the wealthy. They do not give a flip about those McDonalds workers.

 

[Sapper Woody]

Add in post 9/11 GI Bill. 4 years of tuition and books plus housing allowance at the E5 rate. You can leverage 4 years of work into 8 years of living expenses.

I'd say the biggest loss of wealth for military families is the effect of all of the moving on the spouse's career.

Non-managerial fast food jobs and being a private in the military are both entry level jobs, not careers.

I was in for 7 years. Retired as an E5. The biggest loss of wealth for my military family? The fact that I've been out Only 15 months and am on my fourth job, as I keep getting fired because I have to constantly leave work early due to panic attacks and PTSD.

Now, let's take a look at the average wage differences here, including housing, etc. Let's round up the E1 rate to $40,000 per year for easy math. Then we'll factor in some things. The times and stats I'm going to use is based on my actual experience.

First, daily routine. At PT at 0615. Done at 0800, then back to work by 0845. Off work at 1700, with almost 1.5 hours for lunch. This equals 8.5 hours of work time per day, which we'll use, but is actually wrong, because if you live in housing (especially off post), you are still away from family for the full 10.75 hours. But we'll stick with 8.5, so people don't think I'm trying to skew the numbers. Now, just using that amount, that's 42.5 hours per week. No overtime granted. Already, we're ahead of the fast food jobs. This brings us to 2210 hours per year, as opposed to the 2080 hours of a fast food worker.

Now, the typical Army company gets one 3-day weeked per month. So we'll take off 8.5 times twelve. This is 102 hours, or bringing us to 2108 hours a year.

However, the typical Army private does two "CQ" guard shift per month. A CQ shift is 24 hours, and you get the next day off, unless it's a Friday or Saturday shift. Usually, you'll have a weekend shift about once every 2 months. So, on non-weekend shifts we'll take out 6.5 hours (remember, we're not counting lunch). So, we're adding in 24(24) for the CQ shifts, and subtracting 18(6.5) for comp time, and also subtracting 24(6.5), as this overlaps with the CQ shift in time you'd be working anyway. This brings us up to 2411 hours worked in a year. We're now down to 40k/2411 = 16.29 per hour.

Now, the average company spends at least one week in the field every 3 months (for my company, it was one month in the field every 6 months). So, we're going to add back in 4(7(24)) for the hours spent in the field, and subtract 4(5(8.5)) for the hours that overlap. We're up to 2913 hours per year, or $13.73 per hour.

Then, we have our bi-annual NTC trip (for us it was actually annual). This is a 30 day training excersize in California, to keep your company/battalion/etc deployment certified. They upped the frequency of this, and it will probably come back down. But not for combat companies. So, since we're talking once every two years, we'll add 15(24) into the hours, and subtract 10(8.5) for the overlap. We're now up to 3188 hours per year, or $12.54 per hour.

Now, at least once per month, there's a urinalysis, which is supposed to be a surprise, and happens at 0500. Then, with the new regulations on some posts, 10% of your company needs to be tested each week. So, we'll figure 1.5 times per month. This adds 1.5(12(1.25)), bringing us up to 3210.5 hours per year, or $12.50 per hour.

So, now let's look at what a fast food worker would have to make per hour, working the same hours, to make the same wage, since they get overtime.

3210.5 - 2080 = 1130.5 hours of overtime per year. So, the formula will be 2080x + 1130.5(1.5x) = 40000. The answer is $10.59 per hour. If the minimum wage were to go up to $15/hr, then a fast food worker working the same hours would make $56636.25 per year.

Now, some will comment that I left out leave. That's because leave isn't guaranteed. I went two years without being able to take leave, and lost "use or lose" days, making them literally worthless. But, you'll also notice I didn't count deployment.

So no, I am absolutely against the minimum wage going up to $15.

I'm going to try and do some math, to see if I can come up with exactly how much I made per hour over my seven years of service. If I'm successful, I'll share it.

 

[righteousdude2]

I was in for 7 years. Retired as an E5. The biggest loss of wealth for my military family? The fact that I've been out Only 15 months and am on my fourth job, as I keep getting fired because I have to constantly leave work early due to panic attacks and PTSD.

Now, let's take a look at the average wage differences here, including housing, etc. Let's round up the E1 rate to $40,000 per year for easy math. Then we'll factor in some things. The times and stats I'm going to use is based on my actual experience.

First, daily routine. At PT at 0615. Done at 0800, then back to work by 0845. Off work at 1700, with almost 1.5 hours for lunch. This equals 8.5 hours of work time per day, which we'll use, but is actually wrong, because if you live in housing (especially off post), you are still away from family for the full 10.75 hours. But we'll stick with 8.5, so people don't think I'm trying to skew the numbers. Now, just using that amount, that's 42.5 hours per week. No overtime granted. Already, we're ahead of the fast food jobs. This brings us to 2210 hours per year, as opposed to the 2080 hours of a fast food worker.

Now, the typical Army company gets one 3-day weeked per month. So we'll take off 8.5 times twelve. This is 102 hours, or bringing us to 2108 hours a year.

However, the typical Army private does two "CQ" guard shift per month. A CQ shift is 24 hours, and you get the next day off, unless it's a Friday or Saturday shift. Usually, you'll have a weekend shift about once every 2 months. So, on non-weekend shifts we'll take out 6.5 hours (remember, we're not counting lunch). So, we're adding in 24(24) for the CQ shifts, and subtracting 18(6.5) for comp time, and also subtracting 24(6.5), as this overlaps with the CQ shift in time you'd be working anyway. This brings us up to 2411 hours worked in a year. We're now down to 40k/2411 = 16.29 per hour.

Now, the average company spends at least one week in the field every 3 months (for my company, it was one month in the field every 6 months). So, we're going to add back in 4(7(24)) for the hours spent in the field, and subtract 4(5(8.5)) for the hours that overlap. We're up to 2913 hours per year, or $13.73 per hour.

Then, we have our bi-annual NTC trip (for us it was actually annual). This is a 30 day training excersize in California, to keep your company/battalion/etc deployment certified. They upped the frequency of this, and it will probably come back down. But not for combat companies. So, since we're talking once every two years, we'll add 15(24) into the hours, and subtract 10(8.5) for the overlap. We're now up to 3188 hours per year, or $12.54 per hour.

Now, at least once per month, there's a urinalysis, which is supposed to be a surprise, and happens at 0500. Then, with the new regulations on some posts, 10% of your company needs to be tested each week. So, we'll figure 1.5 times per month. This adds 1.5(12(1.25)), bringing us up to 3210.5 hours per year, or $12.50 per hour.

So, now let's look at what a fast food worker would have to make per hour, working the same hours, to make the same wage, since they get overtime.

3210.5 - 2080 = 1130.5 hours of overtime per year. So, the formula will be 2080x + 1130.5(1.5x) = 40000. The answer is $10.59 per hour. If the minimum wage were to go up to $15/hr, then a fast food worker working the same hours would make $56636.25 per year.

Now, some will comment that I left out leave. That's because leave isn't guaranteed. I went two years without being able to take leave, and lost "use or lose" days, making them literally worthless. But, you'll also notice I didn't count deployment.

So no, I am absolutely against the minimum wage going up to $15.

I'm going to try and do some math, to see if I can come up with exactly how much I made per hour over my seven years of service. If I'm successful, I'll share it.

First of all ... thanks for your service and sacrifice to keep us free ans safe. You can rest assured that you will be in my prayers for the PTSD. I will also pray you are able to find a way to support your family as you transition back into this life.

As for your exhaustive response, I appreciate you taking the time to demonstrate to all of us exactly what is required of our service members. Your comments about weekly guard duty at 24 hour shifts brought one of my nightmares while serving. Those shifts drained me mentally and physically and then there was my regular duty station.

I agree that this push to pay people a ridiculous minimum wage is not reasonable when compared with persons who work at career type jobs. Still, it comes down to this economy being so BAD that the normal bread winner can't find much more then entry level jobs, and that speaks tons about the need for America to get our good paying, career type jobs back within our own borders. If we continue down this path, we are heading for disaster.

God bless you Sapper.

 

[Sapper Woody]

So, I couldn't sleep tonight, and decided to figure up how much I made on average per hour through my 7 years in the military.

To do this, I looked up the pay scales through the years I was in http://www.dfas.mil/militarymembers/payentitlements/military-pay-charts.html.

I also looked up housing for where I was, and used the current housing allowance for what my rank was then. This erred a little to make it look like I made more per hour, but not enough to skew the point I'm going to make.

I then took all the criteria I used earlier into account. Keep in mind, however, that once I became an E5, I had to invest even more time into the Army. I had to be at my guy's room each morning before PT formation, waking them up and doing inspections. I had to make sure the joes all left before I did. Things like this. Even though the average was much higher, I ended up using 10 hours per day for this. (0530 - 1730, minus breaks).

I then calculated in my deployment time, all the leave I took (including while on deployment), and the family sep and hostile fire pay I got.

I even counted in the 60 days of terminal leave I took, in which I received full pay, but didn't work. I also made sure to account for any overlapping hours, and not add in any field time that I missed. I made sure to err on the side of more per hour when there was doubt.

All in all, here are the numbers I came up with:
Total Salary - $185,199
Total Housing - $159,198
Total Family Sep - $6250
Total Hostile Fire - $5625
- Total Income - $356,872

Hours worked, including deployment - 31648.5
Hours in the field (to be added) - 3743.5
Hours on leave (to be subtracted) - 1007.5
- Total Hours - 34384.5

Total wage per hour = $10.38

Now, I think I've made my point. But I understand that there are other perks, like free healthcare. So, here's a list of the major unquantified perks:
- Healthcare
- Job Security
- College
- Life Experience

Now, to more than counter that, here's a list of the major unquantified drawbacks:
- Being Deployed for 25 out of 72 months
- Missing a Child's birth, first steps, first words
- Coming home to a toddler who doesn't know who you are
- Seeing battle buddies blown up
- Insomnia
- PTSD
- Forced retirement at a partial retirement rate (years x 2.5% of base pay)
- Inability to keep a job
- Inability to attend church functions, like a potluck
- Missing classes in school due to anxiety
- "Missing" entire weeks of your life because of hearing about a battle buddy's suicide
- Having teenagers who don't even know you asking how it feels to kill someone
- Going from an NCO to a low man in a job
- Being partially deaf due to the proximity of over 75 explosions
- Nightmares and flashbacks
- Children who describe you as "mean" due to sudden, angry outbursts you have to apologize for later

So, in my mind, the drawbacks outweigh the perks by far.

Crazy thing is, if the Army would take me back, I'd go in a heartbeat. Soldier is not the job I had. Soldier is who I have become.

 

[Don]

Don't forget to figure in level of responsibility and job knowledge requirements.

Did you work with tanks? Compare that to convenience store worker or fast food employee.

How about aircraft mechanic? Submarine nuclear technician? Or the thousand other jobs that an E-1 can be found doing.

When it comes down to it, there's no comparison.

 

[Sapper Woody]

That's a good point, Don. As an E1, I was responsible for roughly $150,000 in equipment. I also went through three months of training every day for eight hours (480 hours) to do my "entry level job".

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk

 

[Salty]

if the Army would take me back, I'd go in a heartbeat. Soldier is not the job I had. Soldier is who I have become.

Sapper - excellent quote,
May I use it?

 

[Sapper Woody]

Sapper - excellent quote,
May I use it?

Yes, that's fine. It's a sentiment I've tried to get my civilian family members to understand. But I don't think anyone who isn't military won't get it.

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk

 

[Don]

That's a good point, Don. As an E1, I was responsible for roughly $150,000 in equipment. I also went through three months of training every day for eight hours (480 hours) to do my "entry level job".

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk

I didn't even consider the training.

Depending on branch of service, how does Basic Training figure into the equation?

 

[Salty]

Yes, that's fine. It's a sentiment I've tried to get my civilian family members to understand. But I don't think anyone who isn't military won't get it.

I have just put this on three facebook pages - have had close to 100 likes.

 

[carpro]

I still don't think $95 a month was much money for an E1 for a lot of 16 hour days, free c rations not withstanding.