poncho
Well-Known Member
That's right, some have always believed that being in control of others is the American way. Thanks for reminding me.
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Miranda rights for Enemy Combatants?
- Thread starter BigBossman
- Start date
That's right, some have always believed that being in control of others is the American way. Thanks for reminding me.
poncho
Well-Known Member
The comparison between WWII and the global intervention we are involved in now is a fallacy and has no merit.
Haven't you heard, this so called "war" we're waging now has no end. Do you intend to hold people without charge forever? And if so...
How is that any different from what totalitarian regimes have been doing for centuries?
KenH
Well-Known Member
An excellent point, poncho.
I highly recommend that people watch the movie "Rendition". Conservatives might have their eyes opened.
BigBossman
Active Member
I have to agree with both you & Rev on separate points. First, I believe that Rev is correct in saying that liberals have no interest in protecting the innocent. It seems like that lately, all we have been hearing is protecting the rights of terrorists & murderers.
I also have to agree with you on the point regarding us being entangled with other countries' affairs. At least that's what I think you are getting at. Correct me if I'm wrong. We wouldn't be in the mess we are in if we hadn't been trying to be a police officer for the entire world. Unfortuantely, as the saying goes, "You make your bed & you lie in it".
To declare a "war on terror" one must attack the root of the problem. That root is Islam. Being that there are multiple countries who harbor terrorists, you can't fight them all. To ensure we don't have another 9-11, first we must close off our borders to all immigrants & monitor those here. Especially, those with connections to Islamic / terrorist nations. If they don't like that, then they can move back to the oppressive country they came from.
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poncho
Well-Known Member
The history of the USA is full of stories about people wanting to control others. At Paint Creek the mine owners machine gunned the miners and their families while they were sleeping in a bid to control them. And that's just one instance among many.
Looks like you might be losing control of this debate Rev. :smilewinkgrin:
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poncho
Well-Known Member
Sounds like you and the Rev have something in common then. Thinking in terms of the collective. You're both judging people by the group they are most associated with instead of judging each individual in the group. Very liberal trait y'all are displaying there.
I believe in protecting the rights of everyone. To do that first you have to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that an individual is in fact guilty of terrorism or murder before you go calling everyone that shares some of the same outwardly attributes as those who have been proven guilty of terrorism terrorists and murderers.
Just because a man has olive skin and speaks Farsi or Arabic does not make him a terrorist or a murderer. Commiting the act of terrorism or murder makes him a terrorist or a murderer. And the burden of proof falls on you. Trying to place the blame on a whole race or group of people for the crimes of a few does not remove that burden.
We've been engaged in military interventionism and hostile regime changes for over a hundred years now and yet we act surprised when someone resents us for it? That's some glaring hubris my friend.
The root problem is not Islam. I know that's the popular propaganda of our time but it's not entirely true. Sure there are alot of Islamic people out there who wish to do us harm now but that's mostly because we and by we I mean the so called "international community" seem to think we own the world and can order others about as if we own them and then bomb them if they refuse to carry out our orders.
Our own hubris and 100 years of military adventurism and this penchant of ours to think only in terms of the collective is the root of most of our problems in the world today.
poncho
Well-Known Member
If you have something of value to say Rev then say it. This kind of weak kneed tactic is well below your capabilities as a debater. Or maybe you should just run up the white flag and be done with it, eh? :smilewinkgrin: :laugh:
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How long a war lasts is not material. Did anyone know how long WWII would last before the first prisoners were taken? It is only after the fact that we knew how long the war lasted.
How do you know that this war has no end?
To aprehend persons perpretrating violence against civilians is not totalitarianism.
Islamic terrorists have attacked the U.S., nations friendly to the U.S. and nations which are not friends of the U.S.
Islamic terrorists have attacked each other.
Your broad stroke analysis is poorly constructed.
poncho
Well-Known Member
Is this supposed to make your collectivist judgements less of a broad brush analysis then? I answered your questions/statements on a point to point basis is it too much to ask you do the same for mine? BTW, I've had all the "conservative" talk show talking points repeatedly thrown at me as if they are the end all of all debate enders so if you could like say form your own opinions and type them in your own words it would be a nice change of pace. :smilewinkgrin:
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What "collectivist judgements" am I guilty of?
To simply say that my arguement is " a fallacy and has no merit" really does not constitute a point by point response.
I have read back through the thread and can see no questions from you addressed to me. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else.
I do not know which "talking points" you are referring too. Perhaps you could point them out to me. Or perhaps you have again mistaken me for someone else.
I must say also that I have read enough of your posts to know that you consider your point of view to be different from others, that you possess a superior insight into the real meaning of political events, that you understand who is really in charge, who is pulling the strings and who is just a puppet, etc.
But I am also well read enough to know that you are merely posting "talking points" from your particular point on the political spectrum.
I agree that terrorists do not have the same rights as persons committing a crime in the US. My problem is how do we know that any of these people are enemy combatants? Why can't one of these people be tried in a military tribunal with the results of the trial being public information? Who exactly is saying that these people have done anything wrong and what evidence do they have. I thought it was criminal to hold that 14 year old child in GitMo for 7 years without charging him with anything. Is that American justice? People seem to throw around the word fascist on this board fairly freely. To me, that is fascism.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Feel free to call "bho" a fascist any time you choose!:thumbsup::applause::smilewinkgrin:
KenH
Well-Known Member
Yes, and apparently there is a whole generation of conservatives who don't know that it is their ideology that is the one most in danger of sliding into fascism. Hitler was of the right, not the left. Hitler hated the left.
Sorry, Ken. State-run media, state controlled highways, government takeover of private business, and silencing dissent are hallmarks of the left. Like Hugo Chavez, for instance. And let's not forget the drumming up of hatred for the Jews.
You must be out of arguments, by now, you are just flailing around. May I suggest you take some time off from this forum & regroup ?
You must be out of arguments, by now, you are just flailing around. May I suggest you take some time off from this forum & regroup ?
Anyhoo, if we'd stop illegally invading these countries, we wouldn't have to worry about this. This is a media-driven issue designed to take everyone's eyes off the real problem.
Just wait for the Somali, Pakistani, & Darfurian prisoners.....we'll need plenty of room for them, too.
Just wait for the Somali, Pakistani, & Darfurian prisoners.....we'll need plenty of room for them, too.
KenH
Well-Known Member
What state-run media are you and Rush Limbaugh talking about, Bro. Curtis? Yes, I have listened to him a little this week and heard him reference a "state run media". I think some conservatives are in danger of using their ability to think rationally.
I suggest you read some history before posting any further on this subject - especially the history of Nazi Germany.
What drumming up hatred of the Jews? The hate groups toward Jews, such as the KKK, are on your side of the political fence, Brother Curtis. It is conservative ideology that is most prone to slide into ethnic, racial, and religious bigotry. I know the truth is hard for some conservatives to accept but they will be better off if they accept the truth and keep from sliding into such garbage.
Conservatives are the ones who need to be concerned about their ideology leading to fascism. To say otherwise is to show little to no knowledge of political history.
I suggest you read some history before posting any further on this subject - especially the history of Nazi Germany.
What drumming up hatred of the Jews? The hate groups toward Jews, such as the KKK, are on your side of the political fence, Brother Curtis. It is conservative ideology that is most prone to slide into ethnic, racial, and religious bigotry. I know the truth is hard for some conservatives to accept but they will be better off if they accept the truth and keep from sliding into such garbage.
Conservatives are the ones who need to be concerned about their ideology leading to fascism. To say otherwise is to show little to no knowledge of political history.
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