Misconceptions

ILUVLIGHT · Jan 22, 2005

Hi Drew;

God doesn’t make men turn to him, he enables them to turn by freeing them from the bondage of sin. You are still misrepresenting “Calvinism”. You cannot disprove what you do not understand.
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I understand a lot more than you think. Calvinism relies on the logic of men.

BTW: Pastor Larry has been very fair with both of us. He has not stated his beliefs in this thread. He has only pointed out your misinterpretation of my statements by trying to help you understand the correct interpretation of what was being said. Pastor Larry correctly interpreted what I said and you misinterpreted it... and of all people here I should know what I was saying.
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I believe that Pastor Larry was just stating what he believes is true. whether or not it's fair or not I didn't say, you did.

I asked you to support total depravity with scripture and you couldn't show one scripture that supports you belief. If I were you I'd rethink my doctrines because if it isn't in scripture, then it doesn't exist.

The fact that Christ died for ILUVLIGHT is well documented in Jn.3:16 He died for you as well as the whole world. I know where I'll be in the end, wouldn't you like to be sure as well?

Election doesn't save, predestination doesn't save. The Holy Spirit doesn't save. Even God doesn't save. This is the authority of Jesus Christ only even though the Father and the Spirit and Jesus are one. We are saved by the blood of the Lamb Jesus Christ.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Wakeup and smell the coffee my friend Salvation only happens if we first trust in Christ Jesus.

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

May Christ Shine his Light On Us all;
Mike

Pastor Larry · Jan 22, 2005

Mike,

You were wrong in your response to Drew's post. There can be no debate about that. You said you agreed with him, when in fact you did not agree with him. That is not a matter of my opinion. It is a matter of undisputable fact. My comments were very impartial, and I in fact invited you to support your charge that other have done that to you. You refused. SO I have nothing to look at to see if in fact you were treated in the same way that you treated Drew.

The fact remains that you have not proven Calvinism is wrong. In fact, you have not even dealt with Calvinism. Your responses here show just how uninformed and miguided you are. More than adequate scriptural support has been given for what Calvinists believe.

You are welcome to debate, but it is in your best interest to learn what you are debating about rather than making up your own stuff.

ILUVLIGHT · Jan 22, 2005

Hi Larry;

My comments were very impartial,
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Actually they appear to be an attack to me Larry. I call it nit picking the conversation. Making a big deal out of nothing.
Mike

Pastor Larry · Jan 22, 2005

Mike,

It is always a big deal when someone says something untrue. That is not nitpicking, and you don't get a free pass. It started with a simple question. YOu could have simply said "I misspoke." Instead, you tried to pass yourself off as agreeign with Drew while distorting Drew's word. They were not an attack on you and you should recognize that. The easiest solution is to tell the truth. If you don't agree, then don't say you do.

Drew · Jan 23, 2005

Hey JohnP,

Thanks for your welcome and for your questions. I would like to apologize for just now responding. I am a husband and a daddy – a privilege and responsibility I wish not to fail at, especially when Momma’s pregnant.

I wonder why you chose the 1689 LBCF to support Calvinism especially the free will article.
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I used the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith for more reasons than one but to summarize it: I chose it because I desired to give a proof document that was not only consistent with the “Doctrines of Grace” (Calvinism - as put forth by the early Reformers), but as a document that is also confessed by a majority of Reformed Baptist churches today. Examples of such “Reformed” churches are members of organizations such as the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America (ARBCA) and also the Fellowship of Independent Reformed Evangelicals (FIRE). Although I am purposely trying to limit the scope to the Baptist fellowship, the closely related Presbyterian confession, the Westminster Confession of Faith is also consistent with the “Doctrines of Grace”.

Since Calvinism is scriptural then you must admit that Calvin and company must have made mistakes because scripture tells us we are always falling short.
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I agree that the “Doctrines of Grace” are scriptural; however, could you please elaborate on the above quote? I am not sure what you mean by it.

You say that hyper-Calvinists never recognise themselves as such but this is just a sweeping generalised statement meant to disparage?
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Actually, this is an observation of mine as well as others that I have communicated with. I think you will agree that nobody wants to admit that they were wrong, or that they have gone beyond (or added to) scripture neither do they desire to admit that they have taken away from scripture. I do not believe that most people purposely skew scripture. I believe that they themselves don’t realize that they have done it until somebody shows them.

You do make a point and lest we have misconceptions about Hyper-Calvinists, I think before we can really go forward with the discussion, it would be necessary to define hyper-Calvinism. If you go to the “Bible Versions / Translations” Forum, I think Dr. Bob gives a great example for us to follow when he discusses KJV Onlyism:

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/4/1993.html

In showing that there are different “types” of KJO’ers you can get a better understanding of what various KJO’ers believe. I found such an article on Phil Johnson’s website. He is the Executive Director for John MacArthur’s “Grace To You” program and I believe he provides a fair evaluation of the subject. Here is that link:

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/hypercal.htm

I have not been here long enough to discuss this topic yet; however, I do believe I saw a thread on hyper-Calvinism. We may want to address this part in that thread or create one that cleanly defines the types of Hyper-Calvinists.

As for my thread I posted what “Calvinism” was, based on what the early Reformers stated in their document, while providing the 1689 as a link to what a majority of Reformed Churches confess today as a proof. Granted, I should have provided the link between those Reformers and the 1689 LBCF; but it could get quite lengthy. For the purpose of providing such information, anyone interested in researching this for themselves (and I do recommend it) can read the Canon’s of Dort where as such the “Calvinism/Armenianism Controversy” is discussed and the 5 Points of “Calvinism” (Doctrines of Grace) are defined.

http://www.reformed.org/documents/canons_of_dordt.html

You can also contrast that document with the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith at:

http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/1689lbc/english/1689econtents.htm

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9. Of Free Will "...he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good..."
Colossians 1:13; John 8:36; Philippians 2:13; Romans 7:15, 18, 19, 21, 23
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I don't know now if this is the right place to discuss this now. I was going to write this last night but was too tied. Let me know if it is the wrong place and I will desist.
The above article on free will is scripturally wrong. The scriptural proofs used do not give proofs at all that we are able to do spiritual good. We are, after all, mere sinners and incapable of good.
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I’m not sure where you got the scripture proofs, I didn’t quote the proofs; however, in reviewing them, I believe they were intended to be used cooperatively within context to show that the concept is there. Just because we are “free from sin” doesn’t mean that we do not sin. We are free from the “natural bondage under sin”. It is God that enables us to keep His statutes and it is also God that allows us to fall. We under go such for the perfecting and preservation of our faith. It is the work of God in sanctifying us and He enables us as willing accomplices. (He “causes” us, not forcefully makes us, to obey.)

"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. (Ezekiel 36:26-27 NASB)

There is a good table that expresses the 4 state conditions of man:

Pre-Fall Man | Post-Fall Man | Reborn Man | Glorified Man

able to sin | able to sin | able to sin | able to not sin

able to not sin | unable to not sin | able to not sin | unable to sin

I apologize, the table may not sho up well, see it here:
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/four-fold.html

Does that make me a hyper-Calvinist? That I believe we are still incapbable of good but that we have begun to overcome. That we are still sinners where every action would result in condemnation if it were not for the fact that Christ died for us?

Whatcha think?
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Hopefully the above table / link will help clarify my meaning. I believe we still sin, but that God has made us capable of rejecting those sinful desires because of regeneration.

We are getting in on the doctrine of sanctification here. There is a one-time setting apart of sanctification (setting aside as such) but also that sanctification is an on-going work of repentance, a mortifying of the flesh.

“It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.” (Galatians 5:1 NASB)

“But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another. “
(Galatians 5:16-26 NASB)

I hope this clarifies things.

Drew · Jan 24, 2005

Hey ILUVLIGHT! I hope you are doing well.

I understand a lot more than you think. Calvinism relies on the logic of men.
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That’s a very vague statement. Can you prove it? I haven’t seen proof and I can’t accept “Because I say so.” Additionally, your scripture references have been such that they only provide half the truth. You are picking and choosing reference out of the full context of all the scriptures to prove your points. You quoted John 14:6

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
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But you fail to harmonize that with all of scripture and all of what Jesus said in the book of John,

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:44 NASB)

A person cannot come unto the Father accept through Jesus; AND that same person cannot come to Jesus unless the Father draws him/her. This presents the need for “Election” and “Predestination”. God Himself chooses whom he will have mercy upon, on whom He will have compassion.

“Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.”
(Romans 9:13-24 NASB)
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I have never said that election and predestination save, you are again misrepresenting the “Doctrines of Grace” and me. Election and Predestination are only a part of the means by which God brings man unto salvation. Salvation is by Grace through Faith. We are justified by faith in Christ Jesus for the atonement of our sins.

“But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.” (Ephesians 2:4-9 NASB)

“The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord. But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. "For so the Lord has commanded us, 'I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES, THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.'" When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.” (Acts 13:44-48 NASB)
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Can you harmonize Acts 13:48? How many that were “appointed to eternal life” believed?

The fact that Christ died for ILUVLIGHT is well documented in Jn.3:16 He died for you as well as the whole world. I know where I'll be in the end, wouldn't you like to be sure as well?
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You used logic that the words “Total Depravity” were not in scripture because… “THERE IS NO SUCH THING”. The concept is there even if the words “Total Depravity” aren’t there. That is my point. Either you misunderstood or purposely misrepresented my words again.

I would love to see you quote entire passages of scriptures as I do rather than individual passages to prove your point. Can you fully give an exposition of John 6, Romans 8-11, Ephesians 1-3 and maintain your doctrine or would you misrepresent that as you have “Calvinism” and me? You said

I understand a lot more than you think.
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You consistently misrepresent “Calvinism” (and even my words) so I can only conclude that either you don’t understand (and are apparently ignorant of the fact) or you are purposefully being deceitful and divisive. Two witnesses friend, Pastor Larry and myself have proved this matter of misrepresentation. If you truly love the light and remain consistent with scriptures, you will analyze yourself and your traditions.

ILUVLIGHT · Jan 24, 2005

Hi Drew;
I am doing very well, how about your self.

I said in a previous post that "Calvinism relies on the Logic of men"
Then you asked;

That’s a very vague statement. Can you prove it?
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Actually it isn't vauge at all but all inclusive

The tulip
#1. Total depravity;
Scripture never says man is totally depraved.
#2. Irrisistible Grace;
Again not ever stated in scripture. Man can and does resist God's grace.
#3. Unconditional Election;
An election of men that excludes most men is not nor could it ever be unconditional. Again the Calvinist idea of unconditional is not in scripture.
#4. Limited Atonement;
You can't limit the saving power of the Lord Jesus. Although the logic of men try to change the meaning of words in scripture so that they can make it line up with there logical faith.
#5. Perseverance of the Saints;
Without the willingness of men to persever they fall. There is no OSAS deal of Salvation.

With so many different doctrines not even in scripture unless misread to make it appear that they are there. One has to conclude that all these doctrines are of man.

Calvinist it appears, follow men not Christ.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

billwald · Jan 24, 2005

"If Calvinism doesn't say all these things then most of the Calvinist here have wavered from the Original intentions of Calvinism."

Most "Calvinists" have never read Calvin! For example, "TULIP" was formulated after Calvin was dead as a reacion to Jacobus Arminius.

ILUVLIGHT · Jan 24, 2005

Hi Billwald;

"If Calvinism doesn't say all these things then most of the Calvinist here have wavered from the Original intentions of Calvinism."

Most "Calvinists" have never read Calvin! For example, "TULIP" was formulated after Calvin was dead as a reacion to Jacobus Arminius.
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Very true as I'm finding out. Those who say I don't understand Calvinism because I don't believe in it don't understand it either because they've never read about true Calvinism. I'm willing to help them understand by giving the chance to see where the Ideas came from that they claim to know so much about.

Here you go just paste this address in your browser and click go and you can read the "Institutes Of The Christian Religion By John Calvin"
http://www.reformed.org/books/institutes/indxbk1.html
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

Pastor Larry · Jan 24, 2005

Most "Calvinists" have never read Calvin!
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Which is just fine since Calvinist doctrine isn't based on Calvin, but rather on Scripture. There is no great need to read Calvin.

Those who say I don't understand Calvinism because I don't believe in it
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I don't believe anyone here has said that you don't understand because you don't believe in it. What we have said is that you don't understand it because you don't understand it. Trust me, Mike ... You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. It is not a matter of you agreeing with us. That is fine with me. The problem is that you don't even know what you disagree with. The ideas that we believe come from our understanding of Scripture. They do not come from Calvin or anyone else. Calvin and others along the way wrote about them and organized them, but the things that we believe are traced from Scripture itself.

You would do well to learn. It would help you immensely, even if you didn't come to believe it.

Drew · Jan 24, 2005

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:

The tulip
#1. Total depravity;
Scripture never says man is totally depraved.
#2. Irrisistible Grace;
Again not ever stated in scripture. Man can and does resist God's grace.
#3. Unconditional Election;
An election of men that excludes most men is not nor could it ever be unconditional. Again the Calvinist idea of unconditional is not in scripture.
#4. Limited Atonement;
You can't limit the saving power of the Lord Jesus. Although the logic of men try to change the meaning of words in scripture so that they can make it line up with there logical faith.
#5. Perseverance of the Saints;
Without the willingness of men to persever they fall. There is no OSAS deal of Salvation.

With so many different doctrines not even in scripture unless misread to make it appear that they are there. One has to conclude that all these doctrines are of man.

Calvinist it appears, follow men not Christ.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
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Hey Mike,
I'm doing great as well. I'm glad to hear things are going well for you.

I am interested on what you believe "Calvinism" says about these points. I know that this can take some time but I would be very grateful if you would do them a little more in depth. I would recommend taking one point at a time. Would you be willing to show us what the doctrine of "Total Depravity" means to you? We could even start a new post if you'd like. Are you up for it?

ILUVLIGHT · Jan 24, 2005

Hi Drew;
Thanks for the invite but, if you stick around you'll find out anyway. Suffice to say there is nothing of the tulip I believe in. The reason I come here and argue such matters is probably that same as yours. The only thing that I could agree on is in is the fact that Christ is the Son Of God that He died for our sins and that he was sacraficed in our place for our sins. He died on a cross for me and rose from the dead after three days and sits at the Father's right hand in Heaven. other than this our beliefs have nothing in common.well that is if you believe this as well.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

RON35951 · Jan 24, 2005

I can't find the word "freewill" in the New Testament, would someone be kind enough to show me where it is?

Dale · Jan 24, 2005

Originally posted by RON35951:
I can't find the word "freewill" in the New Testament, would someone be kind enough to show me where it is?
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I sure can't find it
I saw someone say that we need to get away from the idea that "I am right and you are wrong etc." I believe that this is true, however, that is the whole point to this debate and I would say that this debate has been going on a lot longer than the current terms have that have been assigned to them.
The whole arguement is over men wanting to retain their own goodness.

ILUVLIGHT, That first post of yours was so left handed I can't believe that you are now trying to say it was a straight statment. It was a slap and you know it. Pastor Larry called you on it and you still refuse to admit that.
You also refuse to admit your state of depravity and will continue to do so until God opens your eyes.

ILUVLIGHT · Jan 25, 2005

Hi Dale;
I've always wanted someone to judge me so unfairly.

You also refuse to admit your state of depravity and will continue to do so until God opens your eyes.
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By stating that I'm totally depraved you have said that I'm not saved. This certainly seems to be an out right lie to me. So what makes you the judge of my heart. Do you see yourself as deity? Can you really see mens hearts?
You seem so much like the Pharasee's by being so hypocritical of me. I just couldn't resist showing you up for what you really appear to be.

billwald · Jan 25, 2005

Neither is there a test for "free will." You may think you have it just as you may think that you are one of the elect. Think what you will. <G>

ILUVLIGHT · Jan 25, 2005

Hi BillWald;

Neither is there a test for "free will."
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Well actually there is a test for free will. Everytime you sin you are doing it because you do have freewill. It's your choice and you are free to make that choice. That's why
it's called sin. I know man exercises his free will on a regular basis. The real proof is staring us right in the face.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

Hardsheller · Jan 25, 2005

Mike,

Did anything change about your will when you were saved?

If So - can you tell us what it was?

ILUVLIGHT · Jan 26, 2005

Hi Hardsheller;
I think I know what you're getting at here;

Did anything change about your will when you were saved?
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No, Before I was saved I was able to choose good as well as evil. What did change was that my conscience was in proper working order again. I felt guilt after sinning. Where before I felt guilt then to, but it just didn't have as much effect or encouragement not to sin. I know you hoped I would say yes that my will did change. The problem with Calvinism is you don't believe man has any good in him at all. While I believe that Man does even though he is a sinner. Man is not totally depraved because man has God's law written on his heart. You claim man has no free will to choose Good over Evil then how is it that the unsaved man can and does obey the Laws of God?. Why is it, unsaved men feel guilt for the breaking of those Laws?.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

Hardsheller · Jan 26, 2005

Mike,

I have never claimed any of those things you allege in your post and don't associate with any "Calvinists" who do!

Where are you getting all your misconceptions?

As a Calvinist, I believe every one of the following statements.

1. All men are able to choose "good" as well as evil - saved or unsaved.
2. A lot of unsaved humanity has "good" in them.
3. All men are not totally depraved.
4. Even unsaved men can obey the laws of God.

Your statement and your questions have no merit because you are dealing with your misconceptions about what Calvinists believe.

Why don't you listen for a while and hear with open ears rather than with a closed mind?

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