Misery

[atpollard]

By request, from the Heidelberg Catechism of 1563, a discussion of the state of fallen man:

Part I: Misery

Q & A 3
Q. How do you come to know your misery?

A. The law of God tells me.1

1 Rom. 3:20; 7:7-25​

Q & A 4
Q. What does God’s law require of us?

A. Christ teaches us this in summary in Matthew 22:37-40:“‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’1 This is the greatest and first commandment. “And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’2 “On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

1 Deut. 6:5
2 Lev. 19:18​

Q & A 5
Q. Can you live up to all this perfectly?

A. No.1 I have a natural tendency to hate God and my neighbor.2

1 Rom. 3:9-20, 23; 1 John 1:8, 10
2 Gen. 6:5; Jer. 17:9; Rom. 7:23-24; 8:7; Eph. 2:1-3; Titus 3:3​

Q & A 6
Q. Did God create people so wicked and perverse?

A. No. God created them good1 and in his own image,2 that is, in true righteousness and holiness,3 so that they might truly know God their creator,4 love him with all their heart, and live with God in eternal happiness, to praise and glorify him.5

1 Gen. 1:31
2 Gen. 1:26-27
3 Eph. 4:24
4 Col. 3:10
5 Ps. 8​

Q & A 7
Q. Then where does this corrupt human nature come from?

A. The fall and disobedience of our first parents, Adam and Eve, in Paradise.1 This fall has so poisoned our nature2 that we are all conceived and born in a sinful condition.3

1 Gen. 3
2 Rom. 5:12, 18-19
3 Ps. 51:5​

Q & A 8
Q. But are we so corrupt that we are totally unable to do any good and inclined toward all evil?

A. Yes,1 unless we are born again by the Spirit of God.2

1 Gen. 6:5; 8:21; Job 14:4; Isa. 53:6
2 John 3:3-5​

Q & A 9
Q. But doesn’t God do us an injustice by requiring in his law what we are unable to do?

A. No, God created human beings with the ability to keep the law.1 They, however, provoked by the devil,2
in willful disobedience,3 robbed themselves and all their descendants of these gifts.4

1 Gen. 1:31; Eph. 4:24
2 Gen. 3:13; John 8:44
3 Gen. 3:6
4 Rom. 5:12, 18, 19​

Q & A 10
Q. Does God permit such disobedience and rebellion to go unpunished?

A. Certainly not. God is terribly angry with the sin we are born with as well as the sins we personally commit. As a just judge, God will punish them both now and in eternity,1 having declared: “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the things written in the book of the law.”2

1 Ex. 34:7; Ps. 5:4-6; Nah. 1:2; Rom. 1:18; Eph. 5:6; Heb. 9:27
2 Gal. 3:10; Deut. 27:26​

Q & A 11
Q. But isn’t God also merciful?

A. God is certainly merciful,1 but also just.2 God’s justice demands that sin, committed against his supreme majesty, be punished with the supreme penalty— eternal punishment of body and soul.3

1 Ex. 34:6-7; Ps. 103:8-9
2 Ex. 34:7; Deut. 7:9-11; Ps. 5:4-6; Heb. 10:30-31
3 Matt. 25:35-46​

 

[Calminian]

By request, from the Heidelberg Catechism of 1563, a discussion of the state of fallen man:

Part I: Misery

Q & A 3
Q. How do you come to know your misery?

A. The law of God tells me.1

1 Rom. 3:20; 7:7-25​

Q & A 4
Q. What does God’s law require of us?

A. Christ teaches us this in summary in Matthew 22:37-40:“‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’1 This is the greatest and first commandment. “And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’2 “On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

1 Deut. 6:5
2 Lev. 19:18​

Q & A 5
Q. Can you live up to all this perfectly?

A. No.1 I have a natural tendency to hate God and my neighbor.2

1 Rom. 3:9-20, 23; 1 John 1:8, 10
2 Gen. 6:5; Jer. 17:9; Rom. 7:23-24; 8:7; Eph. 2:1-3; Titus 3:3​

Q & A 6
Q. Did God create people so wicked and perverse?

A. No. God created them good1 and in his own image,2 that is, in true righteousness and holiness,3 so that they might truly know God their creator,4 love him with all their heart, and live with God in eternal happiness, to praise and glorify him.5

1 Gen. 1:31
2 Gen. 1:26-27
3 Eph. 4:24
4 Col. 3:10
5 Ps. 8​

Q & A 7
Q. Then where does this corrupt human nature come from?

A. The fall and disobedience of our first parents, Adam and Eve, in Paradise.1 This fall has so poisoned our nature2 that we are all conceived and born in a sinful condition.3

1 Gen. 3
2 Rom. 5:12, 18-19
3 Ps. 51:5​

Q & A 8
Q. But are we so corrupt that we are totally unable to do any good and inclined toward all evil?

A. Yes,1 unless we are born again by the Spirit of God.2

1 Gen. 6:5; 8:21; Job 14:4; Isa. 53:6
2 John 3:3-5​

Q & A 9
Q. But doesn’t God do us an injustice by requiring in his law what we are unable to do?

A. No, God created human beings with the ability to keep the law.1 They, however, provoked by the devil,2
in willful disobedience,3 robbed themselves and all their descendants of these gifts.4

1 Gen. 1:31; Eph. 4:24
2 Gen. 3:13; John 8:44
3 Gen. 3:6
4 Rom. 5:12, 18, 19​

Q & A 10
Q. Does God permit such disobedience and rebellion to go unpunished?

A. Certainly not. God is terribly angry with the sin we are born with as well as the sins we personally commit. As a just judge, God will punish them both now and in eternity,1 having declared: “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the things written in the book of the law.”2

1 Ex. 34:7; Ps. 5:4-6; Nah. 1:2; Rom. 1:18; Eph. 5:6; Heb. 9:27
2 Gal. 3:10; Deut. 27:26​

Q & A 11
Q. But isn’t God also merciful?

A. God is certainly merciful,1 but also just.2 God’s justice demands that sin, committed against his supreme majesty, be punished with the supreme penalty— eternal punishment of body and soul.3

1 Ex. 34:6-7; Ps. 103:8-9
2 Ex. 34:7; Deut. 7:9-11; Ps. 5:4-6; Heb. 10:30-31
3 Matt. 25:35-46​

Not to nitpick, but I don't see the word death anywhere. Death was the result of the Fall. Death is the enemy Christ came to conquer.

I've always believed our culture's misunderstanding of death is a stumbling block to the Gospel. This I believe goes squarely back to the Church. We've dropped the ball, IMHO.

 

[atpollard]

Not to nitpick, but I don't see the word death anywhere. Death was the result of the Fall. Death is the enemy Christ came to conquer.

I've always believed our culture's misunderstanding of death is a stumbling block to the Gospel. This I believe goes squarely back to the Church. We've dropped the ball, IMHO.

He failed.
Peter died.
Paul died.
Even John eventually died.
My grandparents all died. Kieth Green died.

Even scripture promises "It is appointed to man once to die".

I think the message requires a bit more subtlety than "we'll never be sick, we won't get any older and we won't ever die." [Cocoon]

So what would YOU add to the Catechism?
I'm willing to learn.

 

[Calminian]

I think death is the focus.

Rom. 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!​

Those who trust in Jesus don’t have to fear death any longer.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”​

You don't get that from the above. Our culture is utterly confused about death, and can't even comprehend the connection with sin. Reformed churches have compromised in this area, with notable exceptions like Dr. Mac.

John Calvin understood this, however.

 

[MB]

By request, from the Heidelberg Catechism of 1563, a discussion of the state of fallen man:

Part I: Misery

Q & A 3
Q. How do you come to know your misery?

A. The law of God tells me.1

1 Rom. 3:20; 7:7-25​

Q & A 4
Q. What does God’s law require of us?

A. Christ teaches us this in summary in Matthew 22:37-40:“‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’1 This is the greatest and first commandment. “And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’2 “On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

1 Deut. 6:5
2 Lev. 19:18​

Q & A 5
Q. Can you live up to all this perfectly?

A. No.1 I have a natural tendency to hate God and my neighbor.2

1 Rom. 3:9-20, 23; 1 John 1:8, 10
2 Gen. 6:5; Jer. 17:9; Rom. 7:23-24; 8:7; Eph. 2:1-3; Titus 3:3​

Q & A 6
Q. Did God create people so wicked and perverse?

A. No. God created them good1 and in his own image,2 that is, in true righteousness and holiness,3 so that they might truly know God their creator,4 love him with all their heart, and live with God in eternal happiness, to praise and glorify him.5

1 Gen. 1:31
2 Gen. 1:26-27
3 Eph. 4:24
4 Col. 3:10
5 Ps. 8​

Q & A 7
Q. Then where does this corrupt human nature come from?

A. The fall and disobedience of our first parents, Adam and Eve, in Paradise.1 This fall has so poisoned our nature2 that we are all conceived and born in a sinful condition.3

1 Gen. 3
2 Rom. 5:12, 18-19
3 Ps. 51:5​

Q & A 8
Q. But are we so corrupt that we are totally unable to do any good and inclined toward all evil?

A. Yes,1 unless we are born again by the Spirit of God.2

1 Gen. 6:5; 8:21; Job 14:4; Isa. 53:6
2 John 3:3-5​

Q & A 9
Q. But doesn’t God do us an injustice by requiring in his law what we are unable to do?

A. No, God created human beings with the ability to keep the law.1 They, however, provoked by the devil,2
in willful disobedience,3 robbed themselves and all their descendants of these gifts.4

1 Gen. 1:31; Eph. 4:24
2 Gen. 3:13; John 8:44
3 Gen. 3:6
4 Rom. 5:12, 18, 19​

Q & A 10
Q. Does God permit such disobedience and rebellion to go unpunished?

A. Certainly not. God is terribly angry with the sin we are born with as well as the sins we personally commit. As a just judge, God will punish them both now and in eternity,1 having declared: “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the things written in the book of the law.”2

1 Ex. 34:7; Ps. 5:4-6; Nah. 1:2; Rom. 1:18; Eph. 5:6; Heb. 9:27
2 Gal. 3:10; Deut. 27:26​

Q & A 11
Q. But isn’t God also merciful?

A. God is certainly merciful,1 but also just.2 God’s justice demands that sin, committed against his supreme majesty, be punished with the supreme penalty— eternal punishment of body and soul.3

1 Ex. 34:6-7; Ps. 103:8-9
2 Ex. 34:7; Deut. 7:9-11; Ps. 5:4-6; Heb. 10:30-31
3 Matt. 25:35-46​

Old Heidelberg sure was good at taking scripture out of text huh!
MB

 

[MB]

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

This is just show that man already knows about God and all the invisible things of Him. If man knows and understands then this inability is nonsense.
MB

 

[Dave G]

This is just show that man already knows about God and all the invisible things of Him. If man knows and understands then this inability is nonsense.

Romans 1:30-32.
Romans 3:10-18.
John 3:19-20.
Psalms 10:1-4.
Psalms 14:1-3.

 

[atpollard]

Old Heidelberg sure was good at taking scripture out of text huh!
MB

More like HUH???

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

This is just show that man already knows about God and all the invisible things of Him. If man knows and understands then this inability is nonsense.
MB

I went looking to see where the Heidelberg Catechism references Romans 1:18-20 and only saw the following:

Q. Does God permit such disobedience and rebellion to go unpunished?

A. Certainly not. God is terribly angry with the sin we are born with as well as the sins we personally commit. As a just judge, God will punish them both now and in eternity,1 having declared: “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the things written in the book of the law.”2

1 Ex. 34:7; Ps. 5:4-6; Nah. 1:2; Rom. 1:18; Eph. 5:6; Heb. 9:27
2 Gal. 3:10; Deut. 27:26​

​

The Heidelberg Catechism does not use Romans 1:18 to say anything at all about "inability". Here are the points that the verses listed under footnote [1] are purported to support:

• God is terribly angry with sin
• we are born with sin
• we personally commit sin
• God is a just judge
• God will punish sinners now
• God will punish sinners in eternity

Romans 1:18 (For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;) does support some of those points, and the larger context of Romans 1:18-20 (For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:) neither negates nor contradicts any of those points.

I do not see how the verse was used out of context to support the claims about God being angry with sin and willing to punish sinners for their sin.

It seems that your disagreement with the Heidelberg Catechism has nothing to do with its interpretation of Romans 1:18, unless you are prepared to argue that God IS NOT angry with sin and God WILL NOT punish sinners for their sin.

 

[atpollard]

If man knows and understands then this inability is nonsense.

Just a quick "point of information":
When a 'Calvinist' (Reformed/Particular Baptist/Doctrine of Grace) advocate uses the term "Total Depravity", we do not mean that people are as evil as they can possibly be (degree of depravity). Rather we mean that every part of a human being has been corrupted by sin in some way (extent of depravity).

The result of "Total Depravity" (as defined above) is "Total Inability", defined as follows: Man is not capable of coming to God in His own strength and wisdom. That is all it means, and we draw our view from verses like these ...

• 2 Corinthians 4:4 "In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."
• 1 Corinthians 2:14 "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
• John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

We believe this human inability is the reason why every person must be born a second time:

• John 1:12-13 "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
• John 3:5-7 "Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’"

 

[MB]

More like HUH???



I went looking to see where the Heidelberg Catechism references Romans 1:18-20 and only saw the following:

​

The Heidelberg Catechism does not use Romans 1:18 to say anything at all about "inability". Here are the points that the verses listed under footnote [1] are purported to support:

• God is terribly angry with sin
• we are born with sin
• we personally commit sin
• God is a just judge
• God will punish sinners now
• God will punish sinners in eternity

Romans 1:18 (For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;) does support some of those points, and the larger context of Romans 1:18-20 (For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:) neither negates nor contradicts any of those points.

I do not see how the verse was used out of context to support the claims about God being angry with sin and willing to punish sinners for their sin.

It seems that your disagreement with the Heidelberg Catechism has nothing to do with its interpretation of Romans 1:18, unless you are prepared to argue that God IS NOT angry with sin and God WILL NOT punish sinners for their sin.

I don't see those passages like you do. I can agree that God will punish men for there sins unless they have been forgiven of those sins. The thing I see in it, is scripture telling us that even those who are not saved already know the mysteries of God. These things are manifested with in man. Yet I'm told by Calvinist that the lost cannot know the mysteries of God. The mysteries are the deep things of God. I do not think it to be a contradiction in scripture, but misinterpretation by Calvinist to ignore this passage and why it's in scripture.
Taken out of context because it's not just about man's sin but also the fact that man already knows the mysteries of God. and knows his life of sin is wrong. He knows God can save Him and rejects it knowingly.
MB

 

[Craig Hooker]

Old Heidelberg sure was good at taking scriptureout of text huh!
MB[/QUOEe

Was it? Can provide a example?

 

[Dave G]

Yet I'm told by Calvinist that the lost cannot know the mysteries of God.

Matthew 11:27.
Matthew 13:10-11.
Luke 10:22.
John 6:46.
1 Corinthians 2:6-16.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4.

The mysteries are the deep things of God.

I agree.

That's what I see when I read 1 Corinthians 2:6-16...
That the reason believers are given His Spirit, is so that they might know the things that are given to us by God.
Those very same things that are taught in the Gospel and the rest of the Bible, and that those that are perishing think are foolishness ( 1 Corinthians 1:18-30, 1 Corinthians 2:14 ).

 

[Dave G]

Old Heidelberg sure was good at taking scripture out of text huh!

It's the Heidelberg Catechism, put forth in Heidelberg, Germany in 1563:

Heidelberg Catechism - Wikipedia

 

[Iconoclast]

Nothing was out of context as we all know.
It is doubtful any biblical response will demonstrate this idea.