Missionary vs Evangelist (Part 2)

[John of Japan]

You seem determine to avoid the text on this one.

And you seem to be avoiding the OP on this one. I'll quote from it for you:

"A thread in the fellowship forum was opened up but since it was in the fellowship forum someone suggested another being opened for debate in the debate forums. In fulfilling that wish I am opening the debate/discussion on the topic.

"What is a Missonary? What is an Evangelist?

"As well I have included the original question:"

"Originally Posted by Hawaiiski
Where did the term "missionary" originate? Why do we use it if it isn't in the Bible? Was an evangelist in the Bible the equivalent of a missionary?"

My belief is that the Biblical evangelist was not a missionary. You seem to be saying evangelist and missionary are the same. Yet I contend you have not proven your point. Where is it in the Bible that the evangelist was a missionary?

1Tim 1
3As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines,
4nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation[/b] rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith.

5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
6For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,

1Tim 4
10For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
11Prescribe and teach these things.
12Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe.
13Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching.
14Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.
15Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Now, in the texts you have given here, nothing is mentioned about church planting, and the term evangelist is not used. So I fail to see the relevance to our discussion.

My argument is not that Evangelists have to stay back and build up a church as Timothy did - but I allow that such is the case with Timothy. Also I do not post this opinion to downgrade the work of any missionary no matter what their denomination. I am simply stating what I find in the NT on the subject.

Once again I'll ask: where did Timothy do church planting? Do you have a clear understanding of what a church planting missionary does, and of how to plant a church? You don't seem to.

I keep expecting someone to dispute my definition of a missionary as a church planter. No one has, so my definition stands. So now I am still waiting to be shown where the Biblical evangelist planted a church. Go ahead, I'll even allow you to use Timothy. Don't tell me what Timothy did in the church Paul planted. Tell me where Timothy planted a church. I'll be waiting.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

To me the 5 statements of the Great Commission are among the most misunderstood and under-interpreted passages of Scripture. While I agree that all Christians are to be witnesses based on John's Great Commission (John 20:21-23), I disagree that all are missionaries.

Please note that Matthew's Great Commission is specifically to "the eleven disciples" (v. 16), while John's is simply to the gathered "disciples" (20:19). The 11 disciples were the leaders of the first church at Jerusalem, then all were church-planting missionaries, with only the martyred James not going out as a cross-cultural missionary. (We know this from church history.) So personally I don't think Matthew's commission applies to all Christians. (Have you baptized anyone recently?) Again, the Great Commission in Acts 1:8 is specifically to the apostles as a strategy to reach the world cross-culturally, not to all Christians (v. 2).

Forgive me, but when I think of my missionary friend Dr. T. ministering cross-culturally amid great hardship and poverty in a 3rd-world Muslim country, in danger of severe persecution or even death at any time, I am very disappointed at Americans who wish to be called missionaries just for witnessing. Dr. T. and his title of missionary deserves far more respect than that.

I don't say this is you, but the typical American Christian gives out a tract or two, maybe says a word of witness on the job once in awhile, but never suffers for Christ. Then he goes home, eats a calorie-loaded supper, sits in his easy chair, watches a ball game and pats himself on the back for being a great Christian and a witness.

I humbly claim the title missionary since I am a cross-cultural church-planter here in Japan, but in Heaven I think I'll just sit in a corner and listen to guys like Dr. T. or the Apostle Paul as they compare their scars earned in the service of Christ.

J o J

The people you are referencing as the typicals, really have very little to do with Christ. That being said, I understand what you are saying, and there is some truth to it, however some people are in a position where they want to 'go', but the Lord clearly says stay where I put you. I realize there isn't quite so much 'glory' (for lack of a better word) in being a domestic missionary, but nonetheless, there are domestic missionaries.


BGTF

BTW, the answer to your question is yes.

 

[John of Japan]

J o J

The people you are referencing as the typicals, really have very little to do with Christ. That being said, I understand what you are saying, and there is some truth to it, however some people are in a position where they want to 'go', but the Lord clearly says stay where I put you. I realize there isn't quite so much 'glory' (for lack of a better word) in being a domestic missionary, but nonetheless, there are domestic missionaries.

I'm afraid there is not much glory here on earth in being a missionary. When we are on furlough, occasionally someone calls missionaries their heroes (I always shudder), but often there is apathy. Remember that Paul said the apostles were the offscouring of the earth (a quite different picture than we have of them looking back in history). I will be content if someday I hear God's "Well done." In the meantime, we must all do God's will whether it keeps us in the homeland or takes us to faraway lands. And no doubt God will reward those who wanted to come out to the fields of the world but were not called.

Having said that, in the army the risk of being on the front lines does not compare with the risk of pushing paper in the Pentagon. So frankly I am somewhat jealous of the title missionary. You folk in the States may be Christian soldiers, but do you have to struggle to learn a foreign language? Do you weep over cross-cultural frustration? Do you get stress diseases because you don't understand the customs around you? Do you face real depression from having no idea what to do to build bridges to the people around you who speak a different language and have completely different customs? Do you face complete rejection by heathen bureaucrats simply because you are a missionary when you apply for something? We have faced all of these things foreign to someone who never leaves America, and much more.

I mean no offense, I'm just trying to point out some things about the word missionary. We find when in the States that no one understands these things unless they have actually at least visited the mission fields of the world. Yet that doesn't discourage me. I count it a great, undeserved privilege to be a missionary.

BGTF

BTW, the answer to your question is yes.

Sorry, I'm not sure which question you mean.

 

[BobRyan]

1Tim 4
10For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
11Prescribe and teach these things.
12Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe.
13Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching.
14Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.
15Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Now, in the texts you have given here, nothing is mentioned about church planting, and the term evangelist is not used. So I fail to see the relevance to our discussion.

1. The activity described is not that of someone going to a new area and evangelizing -

2. You seem to be arguing that you find no evangelism there AND that you find no church planting - church growth etc there.

Is it your claim that they did nothing if they were not evangelists?

 

[John of Japan]

1. The activity described is not that of someone going to a new area and evangelizing -

This is exactly my point!!!

2. You seem to be arguing that you find no evangelism there AND that you find no church planting - church growth etc there.

No, you don't understand. I'll explain once again. I am saying that a missionary does church planting. Timothy (by your definition) was an evangelist. As you have aptly shown, he did many things in the church that Paul planted, no doubt including evangelism (a must if he is an evangelist, right?). However, Timothy did not plant the church. (Church growth and church planting are most definitely not the same.) Therefore he was not a missionary even if I concede that he was an evangelist (which I do not).

Does this now make sense to you? I'd really like to continue the debate if we can pay attention to each other's views and seek to understand them. If we can't, then this is not a debate, it's a futile exchange of mis-understood posts.

Is it your claim that they did nothing if they were not evangelists?

Absolutely not. Please go back in this thread and read my clear definitions of missionary and evangelist. A missionary is a church planter and an evangelist is a specialist in evangelism. They are two separate offices and professions. I feel I have been very clear in this.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

I'm afraid there is not much glory here on earth in being a missionary. When we are on furlough, occasionally someone calls missionaries their heroes (I always shudder), but often there is apathy. Remember that Paul said the apostles were the offscouring of the earth (a quite different picture than we have of them looking back in history). I will be content if someday I hear God's "Well done." In the meantime, we must all do God's will whether it keeps us in the homeland or takes us to faraway lands. And no doubt God will reward those who wanted to come out to the fields of the world but were not called.

Having said that, in the army the risk of being on the front lines does not compare with the risk of pushing paper in the Pentagon. So frankly I am somewhat jealous of the title missionary. You folk in the States may be Christian soldiers, but do you have to struggle to learn a foreign language? Do you weep over cross-cultural frustration? Do you get stress diseases because you don't understand the customs around you? Do you face real depression from having no idea what to do to build bridges to the people around you who speak a different language and have completely different customs? Do you face complete rejection by heathen bureaucrats simply because you are a missionary when you apply for something? We have faced all of these things foreign to someone who never leaves America, and much more.

I mean no offense, I'm just trying to point out some things about the word missionary. We find when in the States that no one understands these things unless they have actually at least visited the mission fields of the world. Yet that doesn't discourage me. I count it a great, undeserved privilege to be a missionary.

We could compare how many death threats we have had on account of the gospel, but it matters not. Each of us is merely an unprofitable servant, kept alive by the Lord, and in the place where the Lord wants some work done.

We could talk off-line about this if you like.

I am reading a book right now titled "Workmen of God" by Oswald Chambers, it may be of some help to you.

Sorry, I'm not sure which question you mean.

The one below.

Have you baptized anyone recently?

BGTF

 

[John of Japan]

We could compare how many death threats we have had on account of the gospel, but it matters not. Each of us is merely an unprofitable servant, kept alive by the Lord, and in the place where the Lord wants some work done.

We could talk off-line about this if you like.

As long as we are both glorifying God through our lives and seeking to do His will, that is what matters most. My goal with this thread is that of the Apostle Paul when he said, "I glorify mine office" (but not himself of course). I believe that the offices of evangelist and missionary ought to both be glorified since it is God who instituted them, and in order to do that we must understand what they are Biblically.

If you want to discuss it off line and ask more about my position, please feel free to PM me.

I am reading a book right now titled "Workmen of God" by Oswald Chambers, it may be of some help to you.

Thanks, I appreciate that. He is a good author and I'll keep that book in mind. Right now, though, I'm quite backed up on books I really need to read.

The one below.

BGTF

Amen! Glad to hear that!

Of course the authority for baptism would take an entire 'nother thread, so all I will say is to note what I did before, that Matthew's commission was given specifically to the 11, who were the leadership of the first church at Jerusalem.

 

[John of Japan]

Having said that, in the army the risk of being on the front lines does not compare with the risk of pushing paper in the Pentagon. So frankly I am somewhat jealous of the title missionary. You folk in the States may be Christian soldiers, but do you have to struggle to learn a foreign language? Do you weep over cross-cultural frustration? Do you get stress diseases because you don't understand the customs around you? Do you face real depression from having no idea what to do to build bridges to the people around you who speak a different language and have completely different customs? Do you face complete rejection by heathen bureaucrats simply because you are a missionary when you apply for something? We have faced all of these things foreign to someone who never leaves America, and much more.

My purpose here was not to glorify the missionary (though I magnify my office), but to show how different our job is from that the evangelist in the home country.

The evangelist: is a specialist in mass and personal evangelism (see the life of Philip), who ministers to the churches (Eph. 4:11). Therefore he is likely to hold evangelistic meetings in churches, tents and auditoriums. He may hold seminars on personal evangelism and write books on it. He seeks revival of the church and believers so that more souls will be saved for God's glory, therefore his preaching may be sharper and harder at times than the pastor--he can say some things the pastor dare not.

The church-planting missionary in the mold of Paul: does pioneer evangelism, usually cross-culturally (though I believe there is a place for home missions). He starts a church from scratch, with the goal of bringing it to independence with a national pastor (the three selfs: self-supporting, self-propagating, self-governing). Therefore he must also mentor and train young men for the pastorate. He himself must also be a pastor as long as he is planting the church. All of this points to a very different skill set than that of the evangelist mentioned above.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

....He starts a church from scratch, with the goal of bringing it to independence with a national pastor (the three selfs: self-supporting, self-propagating, self-governing). Therefore he must also mentor and train young men for the pastorate. He himself must also be a pastor as long as he is planting the church. All of this points to a very different skill set than that of the evangelist mentioned above.

John

This is said with a large wail, .....NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

The three self patriotic movement was initialized by the Chinese government in the 50's with the aim of removing foreign influence in China, and instituting governmental control over the church.

This isn't the most complete info, but it is introductory on the topic.
http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/three-self.htm

"Come wind, Come weather" by Leslie T. Lyall about the present experience of the church in China has a great summation of the "three self movement".

If you can't access the book there, I will type it into a PM for you.


BGTF

 

[John of Japan]

John

This is said with a large wail, .....NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

The three self patriotic movement was initialized by the Chinese government in the 50's with the aim of removing foreign influence in China, and instituting governmental control over the church.

This isn't the most complete info, but it is introductory on the topic.
http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/three-self.htm

"Come wind, Come weather" by Leslie T. Lyall about the present experience of the church in China has a great summation of the "three self movement".

If you can't access the book there, I will type it into a PM for you.


BGTF

Sorry, but you are wrong. The "three self" statements and philosophy were coined by a missionary named Henry Venn long before the Chinese Communists got ahold of them. The communists stole the "three self" terminology and used it for their own wicked purposes. I am well aware of the situation in China, have distributed Bibles (mainland simplified script) and given tracts to many Chinese here in Japan, etc.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Self_Patriotic_Movement (The facts about Venn are also in the link you gave me.)

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

Sorry, but you are wrong. The "three self" statements and philosophy were coined by a missionary named Henry Venn long before the Chinese Communists got ahold of them. The communists stole the "three self" terminology and used it for their own wicked purposes. I am well aware of the situation in China, have distributed Bibles (mainland simplified script) and given tracts to many Chinese here in Japan, etc.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Self_Patriotic_Movement (The facts about Venn are also in the link you gave me.)

I realize the 'three self' statements were coined by Venn 100 years earlier, but when you mentioned a national pastor it sounded eerily like the TSPM, I just wanted to make sure you were aware of it.


BGTF

 

[John of Japan]

I realize the 'three self' statements were coined by Venn 100 years earlier, but when you mentioned a national pastor it sounded eerily like the TSPM, I just wanted to make sure you were aware of it.

BGTF

I'm amazed! You need to meet more cross-cultural missionaries. To a missionary it would not sound like the TSPM at all. We independent Baptist cross-cultural church planters use the term "national pastor" all the time, and I've never heard anyone compare that term to the TSPM. In Japan we use it to refer to any Japanese pastor at all.

Our goal is to work ourselves out of a job, and turn the church over to a national pastor. "National pastor" is more polite nowadays than the old term "native pastor." It's as simple as that. :type: