missionism/ evangelism

Quick question, do Primitives ordain their ministers?

 

If you say so, but you want to go to India to help people, then you help people that are missionaries.... I see a very nice person with a big heart.

I wish some in my circles had the heart you do.

Just a compliment. :thumbs:

 

You looked at verses two and four, but skipped over verse three which is the one I was talking about.

"Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away." Acts13:3

So while yes they are called by God. They were prayed for, encouraged and supported by the members of the church, and then sent out.

 

amity,

of course the Holy Spirit is the One who does the actual individual calling! The church's support and "sending" is merely an affirmation that they recognize that call on the person's life and are behind them, lending them emotional and/or financial support.

Philippians 4
14: Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction.
15: Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.
16: For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity.

Here Paul is writing to the church in Philippi and commending them for helping him......the church, not necessarily individuals.

He reports back to churches, he was sent out through Antioch, he was aided by other churches........

 

amity,

the age of missions would have ended if no other creatures had ever been born since the time of Paul...........

we now have new people to talk to.......

 

Your zero tolerance for missions must yield to a clearer understanding of the Word of God which you so casually split. In v. 2, which you failed to quote all of since it contradicted your position, it says specifically that they were sent by the elders of the church. So in the same verse it says that both the church and the Holy Spirit sent them.

I tell you right now, before God and man, that I was called and sent by the Holy Spirit. You say that the apostles were sent by the Holy Spirit. Yet you sit in judgment upon me and other missionaries and say you have "zero tolerance for missions"--meaning essentially that you doubt my call by the Holy Spirit. May the Lord change your hard heart before you reach Heaven and find out in shame and agony of heart how wrong you are, and have to have the Lord wipe away your tears at a wasted life.

 

verse 2 not being quoted does not essentially change the principle in its contesxt, sir, therefore it is ungentlemanly of you to accuse your fellow of knowingly corrupting the word of God to favor her interpretation.
Would the pair have been sent out if the Holy Spirit did not give the command ? Would lieutenants send out their men to battle without the order of high command ? There is a hierarchy in heaven and the church is subject to that hierarchy. The elders were essentially passing on the order in obedience to the Spirit. Mentioning their obedience or not does not change the fact that they can not and will not do things on their own.

That is what you say. Whether that is true or not, of course, only God knows.
What we as human beings know is that any missionary from any "Christian" church, whether it be Arminian, Calvinist, Missionary Baptist, Primitive Baptist, Roman Catholic, Seventh-Day Adventist, Jehovah's Witnesses, Methodist, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, will say they also were called and sent by the Holy Spirit.
Do you think so ?
Is this the same Holy Spirit that the Scriptures say separated Paul and Barnabas ?

Are you therefore an apostle, sir ?

Nobody sits in judgment of missionaries, sir. This is why the lady is able to help those missionaries who happened by where she lived. This is why I have housed two Arminian missionaries from the Philippines when they were on deputation missions to their supporting Arminian churches here, and will house them again this year, and anytime they are in the States.

We have a lively discussion, sometimes heated, yes, but we part as friends. It seems certain personalities here on this board take things personally, and have developed such a hatred of Primitive Baptists they would go on record in their blog sites with fabricated and twisted accusations against PB's.

We judge missions as implemented today beginning from its purposes to its methodologies to be unscriptural. It was on the discussion and debate table, and we discussed and debated it.

The war in Iraq has been judged by most Americans and those who are not even under the government of America to be immoral, and unconstitutional. Are the soldiers, the individuals who go out there under orders, and most believing what they do to be right, also said to have been judged ?

As to your call by the Holy Spirit, again, that is something no one can validate. You said so, therefore you are responsible to God for that.

It's a blade that could cut both ways, sir.

 

Pinoy, you all are sitting in judgement.
We all see that you feel that missions are not from God.
And if missions are not from God, then missionaries must be mistakent about their call.

It is obvious what you believe.
The apathy that is among PBs for winning souls are letting souls die an go to Hell.
We obviously are not going to agree with each other.
This very debate is what formed the PBs in the 19th century in the first place.

While other Baptists realized the need for missions, the PBs stood against them... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_Baptist

Pinoy, I disagree with your theology. And as a pastor, I have to warn my flock and others of the types of theology out there that is not right.

I am sure you are warning your flock that our theology is wrong also.

We may disagree, but I still count you as a brother.
Tim

 

There is one thing which Baptists all have in common: we baptize (surprise?).

Yet, we have no command for the "laity" to baptise and in fact that command is part of the Great Commission which is given to the Apostles.

So, using the logic that the Great Commission was given only to the Apostles and could only be exercised by them, by what authority do we in the 21st century baptise in water in the name of the Triune God?

The only answer I have ever gotten is that it is a local church decision to baptise.

Well then, my local church has decided to support missions and missionaries because we believe that the spirit (if not the letter) of the NT includes those who would become part of the Church in future generations as recipients of the Great Commission as well as the Apostles.

Some see it differently, so be it, yet I'm sure they have means by other names to help those in far away places and folks who organize the help and the gathering of the funds.

My own personal opinion of this issue is that mission boards lends credence to the concept of the Universal Church which ruffles some baptist feathers.

I can certainly see where there is a need for accountability for funds, doctrine and integrity of mission boards.

Mission boards relieve the missionary of a lot of the everyday tedium of work details of being in a foreign land, provide so many other things such as ease of communications, supplying emergency needs, clothing, etc, etc... I personally find nothing unscriptural in these things.

As to the "letter":

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.​

Well, the "end of the world" has not come yet, therefore someone has to do the apostolic function "Go, teach, baptise"
​

"Occupy till I come"

Each in his/her own goes, teaches, baptizes, organizes and supports these functions...

We all have those things upon which we don't agree?

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all...


HankD

 

Yes, it certainly does change the principle. She said the church did not send the apostles. I say it did, thus agreeing with the Bible. The Holy Spirit sent the apostle/missionaries, and the church sent them, both. I have done an exegesis of the Greek in that passage another time on the BB. I see no need to do it here.

As for being ungentlemanly, I wasn't trying to be a gentleman. I was rebuking her as a man of God.

Amity is far too intelligent to make such a basic blunder as to omit that phrase unintentionally. She knew what she was doing. She has a BA from Amherst in political science. (Check the college forum.)

Correction. God knows and I know. Other than that, it matters absolutely zero to me what you or anyone else on the BB think about my call to be a missionary. I answer to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and follow Him.

Do I take it personally when people attack missions? Absolutely yes, and will continue to do so. I live and breathe the Great Commission of our Lord Jesus Christ, which you and other Primitive Baptists ignore and say is not for us.

Do I hate Primitive Baptists? Absolutely not, though I oppose their false doctrine. And I have no blog site, and I have never written anything anywhere about them other than on the BB.

 

It wasn't you I meant about blogs. Somebody else. And that has been settled in a Christ-like manner.

Thank you for being civil in your objections and language, though. I sincerely appreciate that.

 

Okay, God bless.:wavey:

 

The problem with finding "verses that support missions" is that Scriptures are so replete with them that it's hard to focus on one. Start at the Great Commission and keep reading.

Don't you get tired, amity, of questioning people's call to ministry and missions, condemning other churches, and publishing an "Unscriptural Practice of the Day?"

Bless God, we had a totally unscriptural day...Several of our hell-bound Pagan Evil God-Forsaken kids sang "Jesus Loves Me" in our Lucifer-spawned, God-Forsaken Sunday School. We had an invitation in both services, extended by our God-Forsaken Pastor, wearing a God-Forsaken Mic, on a God-Forsaken Well Lit Stage. Two people came to know Christ today. We know that because they came forward during the God-Forsaken Invitation, and they told our God-Forsaken Pastor and God-Forsaken Congregation about their decision. Maybe they'll leave our church and go to one that really believes the Bible.

To approximately quote another...I have zero tolerance for those who belittle the Call of God placed on our missionaries. You owe an apology for lumping John in with heretical cults such as JW's. You've been evenhanded with your posts, but this one was over the top IMO.

 

I am glad some came to know Jesus as savior today.
We also had a wonderful service this morning.
We sang our invitational hymn acapella.... (The PBs would have loved that!! lol....uh.... wait, it was an invitational hymn.... Kneel at the cross.)

I preached on the how to attempt the impossible.
To see the sermon on PowerPoint, go here .

The Choir sang "Unclouded Day" accompainied by me on the guitar.
We had a few visitors, and the Children's sermonette, given by our youth director was about being stuck in a rut.
She spoke of how we get stuck in a rut of unforgiveness. And that it will hold you back from fulfilling God's plan.

We also sang the praise song, "Create in me a clean heart" written by Joshua here on BB.

We had a good day.

 

I owe no one an apology. I stated what I know to be true. if you know otherwise, then say it and give the reason why. If you can prove that the Holy Spirit cited by those of other theologies and denominations who go out on "mission" is the same Holy Spirit that called out Barnabas and Paul, then bring out the proof.

Tell me right now, in print, that others do not say they also were called by the Holy Spirit.

 

TinyTim--

Thoroughly enjoyed your power point presentation!! :applause: :thumbs:

Great points. Great illustrations. :applause: :thumbs:


I hope your message isn't copyrighted!

 

• I would say I am "shedding light" insofar as I am sharing how God is blessing our congregation...the same one you say uses so many unbiblical and wrong methods.
• I'm not disrespecting you...I'm pointing out the flaws in your arguments. I am chiding you for your approach...there is an enormous difference between "I don't agree or use that approach" and "your approach is wrong/unbiblical, etc.," which you do with great regularity.
• Scripture: Great Commission. Acts 1:8. Romans 10:13-15. Paul's letters. That should get you started.
• I understand your point of view just fine: "God doesn't want us to engage in missions." It's wrong. Scripture doesn't support it.

If my sarcasm offended you, then I apologize. I've just reached the "tipping point" this week from folks telling me my call of God and my methodologies are mistaken, misplaced, and unscriptural. Bunk.