Missions and flavors

Yes, John of J is right.
Many Primitive Baptists do not believe in missions.
I say many because there are Primitive Baptists who have jumped in on modern missions.
We do not believe in the missions you espouse because:

a. You go out on the proposition that preaching the gospel gets people saved. There is no scriptural proof to that. Preaching the gospel brings life and immortality to light, already possessed by the elect child of God.

The gospel is good news of a finished salvation designed and executed by a merciful God from eternity past for His people whom He knew before they even knew them.

I have said this before, and say it again, the preacher and the gospel has no more power to save than an attorney and a will has the power to make a beneficiary rich.

b. You go out on the proposition that unless there are missionaries out there, God is absolutely unable to reach out to His people and bring them to Christ, therefore making salvation a partnership between the triune God and you, making God totally dependent on fallen men who could barely control sin from entering their thoughts.

We believe God is able to make of stones children unto Abraham, and show us then why this belief is to be ridiculed and held in contempt by you "missionaries" ? Is that unbiblical when no less than John the Baptist uttered those words ?

c. Many of your missionaries go out on the proposition that God called them to the mission field, yet hesitate to immediately pack up and go without looking back unless they have first made the rounds of churches for pledges of support.

We believe that if a man is called of God, then by all means, pack up, go, and rely on the God who called you.

And lest anyone start pointing their finger at me, know that even before I joined the Primitive Baptists the same has been my own conviction, and I have started a church in one of the most depressed areas of my city without relying on the sending church. God supplied all the needs of the church from building materials to my support, and more. That is not to say no churches helped. Yes, there were churches who helped, including the sending church, but I laid out the need only if they asked, and God did the rest.

d. Many of your missionaries claim that they were called of God to teach the nations, yet they feel it is first necessary to go to school and learn preaching skills and learn theology, and "soul winning" strategies. If God called you to teach and preach, then all you need is your Bible, and prayers.

So, yeah, we do not believe in missions and evangelism.

At least, not your kind of evangelism, since we do not preach the gospel on the premise that God uses the gospel to save His people, with the end in view of counting laurels on how many souls were "saved".

He saved His people, period. He chose them in Christ before the foundation of the world. In Christ they were slain before the foundation of the world, in the same sense that Paul says he was crucified with Christ here in time.

In Christ their lives are hid, and in Christ they live.

So, yeah, go ahead and damn us all you want, and then turn around and say we are the ones doing the condemning.

 

Ann,all I see in your scriptures is preaching. I do not see missions, I do not see mission boards. I do not see gospel salvation.

 

I think it is just the opposite. Remove the lenses that say that those passages endorse missionism and you will see that they do not.

And we can place seminaries on the list of worldly intrusions into the scriptural model of the church, too.

And if you are going to use a sloppy term like "hyper-Calvinist" you might as well define it.

 

Ann, Philip did NOT save the eunuch. it is a blessing to learn about Christ, yes, but I do not believe for a second that someone's eternal happiness or woe hangs on the actions of anyone alive today.

 

Being supported by churches is entirely Biblical. Paul and Barnabas were sent out by a church, and supported by churches (See Phil. 4:15-19).

The church is the church of Jesus Christ. It seems very strange that you would criticize and judge those of us who think the church of Jesus Christ is crucial in the work of Jesus Christ.

You also think it is a lack of faith to receive support from churches. This shows you know nothing about the process of deputation. What, do you think I show up at a church and say, "Hey folks, give me your dough!"

When I go to a church, (1) I never ask for money (the church decides that with no input from me); (2) I always ask for prayer, something the missionary who goes out completely independent from the churches does not get much of; (3) I preach the Word of God in the churches--something no one who loves the word of God and the church of Jesus Christ could object to.

I resent the implication that just because I didn't pack up my family and head out with no preparation at all, your way, then I lack faith. You know what? I've seen missionaries who did it that way. They quit early.

I have prayed for hours on my knees, asking the Lord for His will about support from churches, and He has heard those prayers and met every single need of ours in the 25 years we have been on Japan. We owe absolutely no money to anyone, our needs are met every single month through God's wonderful people in His chosen churches. That's the Biblical way.

 

The usual Greek word for "preaching" is kerusso, proclaiming a message. What, don't you believe in sermons on Jesus Christ? Does your church preach on everything else but Jesus Christ? How is it possible for a sermon to be on Jesus Christ yet be devoid of anything about what He accomplished?

Look again the the Scriptures Ann listed. How is it possible to say this is not proclaiming Christ: Acts 8:12 - "But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women."

The entire book of Acts is against your position, Amity. You'd better cut it out of your Bible, throw it away, never refer to it, ignore it and hope it goes away. But it won't. The rest of us still have Acts in our Bibles.

You need compassion in your life. You need to lift up your eyes to the fields, as Jesus said to (John 4:35). You need to look at the world with compassion as Jesus did (Matt. 15:32 and many other verses). You need to look out over your city and weep at their sins as Jesus did over Jerusalem (Matt. 23:37)

How is it okay that people are lost and dying and on their way to Hell? How is it okay that only one per cent of Japan claims to be Christian (only half of that claiming to be evangelical)? Yet you think I am wrong to be here. You in your happy state of election would be just as happy if the whole 99.5% went straight to Hell. May God forgive you for your hard heart.

 

So, according to you, before the preached Word, no one knew Christ, and therefore every creature born before then were damned and gone to hell, right ? Every one from the North to the South of the Equator, from the East to the West, and all points in between. God had no one of His own anywhere before the gospel, that He could then bring to Heaven, because there was no gospel, right ?

And please, don't point me to Romans 1 as most gospel regenerationists do.

I asked this before and ask it again: On what basis then did God bring Enoch and Elijah to heaven, these two not even passing through physical death ? And on what basis did God bring Moses to heaven ? On what basis did the Holy Spirit allow those named in Hebrews 11 to be recorded in His book ?

I would like an answer consistent to the Scriptures that say God does not change, Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Remember, your position is that the gospel and its hearing thereof, saves.

 

I would go beyond that. To me, evangelism and missions are basic tenants of the Baptist faith, and it is amazing that the word "Baptist" even enters into the title of a faith that does not.

The Great Commission and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God answers all the questions quite clearly.

There have been several strawmen in the above posts. One, that mission boards are not the Holy Spirit, is quite true. However, most missionaries in many faiths that feel lead by the Holy Spirit are not supported by mission boards and are funded either through local churches or on their own. Secondly, it was said several times that the evangelism does the saving. That is ridiculous. God and God alone does the saving. It is He who chose how to spread the Gospel. Oh, and I doubt any of us will ever make the list in Hebrews 11.

So what would Jesus have done for his three year ministry with his disciples if he did not believe in preaching the word in various places, sit and chat with Mary, Martha, and Lazarus?

This has nothing to do with Calvinism or free will. This has to do with the fact that not spreading the Gospel in unBiblical.

 

It is nobody's job to save souls. That job was Christ's. And He did it, completely, unflinchingly, obediently, with no help from any human being.

Evangelize the world depends on what you mean by evangelize. If you mean to preach the gospel so souls will "come to Christ and get saved", then I totally disagree. If you mean preach the gospel so those whom God loves may be taught the ways of Christ, gospel obedience, and gospel church membership, then yes, let us evangelize in that spirit and principle.

God does not need anyone. He used no means when He saved His people, not the preacher, not the preaching, not the Bible. Christ through His death on the cross, here in time, finalized what God willed for His people, everywhere, anywhere, which is that they be reconciled to Him through His Son, only His Son, no one but His Son, nothing else but His Son's blood.

Which missionaries ? Your church's missionaries ? The "Primitive Baptist" Missionaries ? The Roman Catholic missionaries ? The Arminian missionaries ? The Seventh Day missionaries ? The Mormon missionaries ? The Church of Christ missionaries ? The Jehovah's Witnesses missionaries ? The Presbyterian, or Episcopalian, or Wesleyan Church missionaries ?

Which missionaries ?

Where is the Scripture for seminaries ? I see what Paul wrote to Timothy whom he instructs to "study the Scriptures....." I don't see Paul telling Timothy, or Barnabas, or the Ephesians, or the Collossians to start Bible colleges, or Bible seminaries. I don't read Christ telling His people that He will send them to Bible school, or that He will send them people with Th.D.'s or Bible college presidents.

The truth of the matter is that Bible colleges and universities are extra-Scriptural, like Sunday Schools, and what they do is churn out students and preachers who toe the theological line of their colleges and/or churches therefore adding more to the babel which is today's "Christianity".

Again, which is His church among the many claiming to be His church ? They can't even agree on doctrines and practices, so which is THE church ?

And you have just demonstrated everything I don't believe.

 

To answer your question, if there were only two churches in town, one a primitive Baptist that did not believe in missions, and a conservative Presbyterian that did, guess which one I would go to. Not go to, but run to.

 

Let me guess. The Primitive Baptists ?:laugh: :laugh: :wavey:

Just kidding.

I know. You'd go to the Presbyterian and would rather baptize infants as long as you can do your missions.

 

Nevertheless, I am amazed at the absolute hatred of "Christians" when the fact is pointed out that Christ, and Christ alone, His work, and His work alone, did what the Father wanted done, save the wicked in whose death He had no pleasure.

Oh, sure, without a doubt there will be vehement objections that they agree to what was said, BUT.....

the job is not done, yet, unless a church sends out a missionary to preach the good news that Christ has come to save sinners (and done it by the way). the work is to be completed by the missionaries, which God in His sovereignty appointed to be the continuers of the mission of Christ.

 

The subject is not infant baptism. The fact is that no one said that Christ and Christ alone didnt do the work. That was your statement. No one said missionaries complete the work. They spread the Gospel as commanded by the Lord.

What amazes me is the absolute blindness to what the Bible says, not only by Christians, but to those who call themselves Baptist. Your post is a bunch of baloney.

 

pinoy,

you know full well that the Word of God existed from the very beginning. There has never been a time when the gospel did not exist. There have always been preachers, though they were not always called such. There have always been people proclaiming the truth of God's salvation plan.

It also amazes me that you can just discount the Bible passages which clearly tell us that they have to believe it in order to be saved, and they cannot believe unless they have heard, and they have to hear through a preacher, and the preachers need to be sent. Pinoy, you are the one who (somewhere in this debate over the last few days) has told me that Romans 10:14 and 15 are taken out of context - implying that they mean something other than what they say......but you have yet to explain that comment.

Please, if you can, tell us what they really mean.....