• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Mistaken views held by Mainstream Believers

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
1) Ephesians 1:4 teaches God chose individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world.

Actually God chose His Redeemer, His Lamb of God, before the foundation of the world, and therefore He chose us corporately when He chose our Redeemer individually. That is the meaning of "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.

2) 1 Corinthians 2:14 teaches that the lost cannot understand any of the things of the Spirit of God.

Actually some of the lost, soils 2,3 and 4 from Mathew 13, can understand the spiritual milk of the gospel.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
1) Ephesians 1:4 teaches God chose individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world.

Actually God chose His Redeemer, His Lamb of God, before the foundation of the world, and therefore He chose us corporately when He chose our Redeemer individually. That is the meaning of "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.

2) 1 Corinthians 2:14 teaches that the lost cannot understand any of the things of the Spirit of God.

Actually some of the lost, soils 2,3 and 4 from Mathew 13, can understand the spiritual milk of the gospel.
Nope, as its individual election, as Jesus died for individual sinners, not for the corporate plan
 

Marooncat79

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Nope, as its individual election, as Jesus died for individual sinners, not for the corporate plan

True it is an individual salvation but when we are saved we are put into the body of Christ corporate salvation.

We do not see in scripture that all Kings, all lawyers, all farmers, etc are saved. What we do see is that each person must make that choice for themselves

If one is not part of the body then can they say they are really saved?
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Elected unto salvation, as the Holy Spirit must regenerate us first to be enabled to believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior

But if we are regenerate/born anew then you have the person saved prior to them even believing in Christ Jesus.

Kind of backwards don't you think?

What happened to hear the gospel, believe the gospel, saved by God?
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

But does God not foreknow everybody?

So what you saying is that everybody will be saved.

But that is universalism and is that not considered heresy?
 

Paleouss

Member
2) 1 Corinthians 2:14 teaches that the lost cannot understand any of the things of the Spirit of God.
Greetings to you Van. My brother in Christ.

I read your points and thought I would comment on #2. For transparency to all that read this, I am a compatibilist with a Un/Limited (notice the slash divider) in regard to the Atonement. Further, I think the Scripture teaches that since mankind is fallen, he is totally depraved (not utterly depraved). This means that God must make the first move of reconciliation (be careful to not assume what I mean here). However, this also suggests, since all mankind is without excuse, that God does make a first move to all people (since all are without excuse). This first move might be called prevenient grace to some, to others general revelation, and yet others possibly an outward call (as opposed to an inward call).

When considering this topic, I ask myself, “If God so chose, could God enlighten the unbelieving just enough to reveal their need for Him?” To this I answer, of course. If God so chooses, certainly God could. So the next question is, “Did God so choose to enlighten unbelievers, just a little bit? Or all mankind just some” Again, this "just some" would be a prevenient grace, an outward call, or something of the like.

To be clear on what I am doing. I am making the distinction between (a) a call and (b) the actual point of salvation. My focus is on the call. The word “call” itself implies that God is the active agent. Before I can receive a call (prevenient or outward), I must be called.

I would first like to start with 2 Corinthians 4:4. In 2 Cor 4:4, "blinded the minds" is not referring to the actual, physical act of "seeing". As I'm sure everyone knows. The unbelieving don't wonder around saying, "what book, I don't see a book" or "what words, this page is blank". The unbelieving 'see' the same thing we see, i.e., the book and the words. They read the same things we read, word-for-word. Those words are present in their minds just as it is the believers. So what does it mean that “the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving”? For it surely doesn't imply actual, physical blindness.

To the assertion of 1Cor 2:14 being a verse that says the lost cannot understand any of the things of the Spirit. I actually, after study, think the NASB has the best understanding of this verse.

(1Cor 2:14 NASB95)
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised...

I think that 1Cor 2:14 makes this more clear. The unbelieving are said to "not accept the things of the Spirit". They often get the information, they process it, but they do not accept it. (emphasis on the word "accept"). So, being blind to it means it is insufficient to persuade spiritually. So why don't they accept it?

Going back to the 1Cor 2:14 NASB95 verse, the unbelieving can read the same thing but they “appraise” (NASB95) it as foolishness. They appraise it as foolishness because at the point of concluding it as spiritual truth, they do not accept it. Here the word “foolishness” does not mean incoherence or goobledegook. It means its conclusion is deemed as foolish. To deem something as foolish one must at least have a handle on what is being considered. Since all mankind is without excuse, then it would seem to follow that the unbelieving at least know ‘some’ of what they are appraising. Enough to be without excuse. And if the Spirit and the initiation of God must be first, then it also follows that God first sent this spiritual something (a call maybe) so then the natural man could then "appraise" it as foolishness.

Peace to you brothers
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Post #2 argues the fallacy of point 1 is valid by claiming our individual election for salvation is individual. Thus the poster has no grasp of the issue, we are chosen individually not before creation, which is precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10, but during our lifetime, when God credits our faith as righteousness.

This pattern of not accurately addressing the issue is the hallmark of false teachers. Post #4 is totally off topic, not addressing either point 1 or 2, changing the subject, which again is the hallmark of false teachers.

Post #6 quotes a verse, but does not say nor suggest how it might be relevant to the topic. If I assume the poster is posting a contrarian view, consistent with Calvinism, then the answer is God knew before Creation He would redeem believers whose faith He would credit as righteousness, And those believers, when chosen, would also be predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, with the washing of regeneration.

Post #5 makes an excellent biblical point! Post #3 hits close to the mark, God crediting our faith as righteousness precedes His choice of that individual for salvation. So the sequence order is God's plan to redeem was formulated before creation, and according to that plan, God chose His Redeemer, His Lamb of God, before creation, and in choosing His Redeemer, He corporate chose as a target group, all those His Redeemer would redeem. Then, during our lifetime, after crediting our faith as righteousness, God transferred us into Christ, when we underwent the washing of regeneration and were made alive forever together united with Christ.

Post #10 seems to accept the things means all the things without ever addressing the issue of 1 Corinthians 3:1, with Paul speaking in the same way he spoke to men of flesh, using spiritual milk. No answer as to why Paul used spiritual milk. And no answer as how soils 2, 3 and 4 were able to understand the spiritual milk of the gospel. I will address "foolishness" in my next post.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Paul uses the Greek word translated "foolishness" five times, all in 1 Corinthians. (1:18, 1:21, 1:23, 2:14 and 3:19)

The idea is that if you hold one point of view, and believe it, then a contrary point of view appears as foolishness, not sound reality.

In 1 Corinthians 1:23, we see that to Jews, who believe in the God of the Bible, the gospel is a stumbling block, contrary in some aspects to what they had believed, but not foolishness, even though unsaved. So spiritual milk can be grasped by men of flesh, but still rejected.

In 1 Corinthians 3:19, we see "foolishness" is the wisdom of the world, from God's point of view. So what makes something "foolish" is our prior understanding, rather than any spiritual handicap.

However, 1 Corinthians 2:14 clearly indicates some things of the Spirit of God cannot be understood, which according to 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 are spiritual solid food things, but not spiritual milk.
 
Last edited:

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Yes! According to the Bible, INDIVIDUALS (pronouns tell the story):

29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.
18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
election and predestination happened from eternity past
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
But if we are regenerate/born anew then you have the person saved prior to them even believing in Christ Jesus.

Kind of backwards don't you think?

What happened to hear the gospel, believe the gospel, saved by God?
No, first regenrated in order to be able to hear and received Jesus thru faith as Lord and savior and to be then born again
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
But does God not foreknow everybody?

So what you saying is that everybody will be saved.

But that is universalism and is that not considered heresy?
The Greek term used there means pretty much same as the hebrew term Yada used in OT, as in Before I formed you in the womb I knew (yada) you. God in His infinite knowledge, knew Jeremiah, loved him, chose him and predetermined his ministry as a prophet before he was born.
In same way, God loved us and chose us to be his own from the very womb itself
 
Top