MMF - Another rock n roll topic

Not only that but perception of music is entirely subjective.While it is true that a musician may have a specific feeling or sentiment (s)he wishes to express (s)he cannot be sure that is what is being conveyed simply by the music itself.We have learned to distinguish between various musical styles only by conditioning ourselves to identify them with a particular emotion or appropriate event.Could you upon listening to the music of the far east determine what is considered by them to be erotic or upbeat or inspirational or any of the feelings music is able to convey?I think not.It requires conditioning to be able to associate a particular musical style with, well, with anything.

Furthermore not all secular rock music is meant to be 'sensual' in the way of eroticism.Much of it isn't.Bob Dylan combined the art form with lyrics of political protest and later introspection.I could site dozens of other examples as I used to be heavily into secular music.The point is sound cannot in itself be considered sinful anymore than light or color or texture or taste.The fruit (or lack thereof) will always be found in the message.

In conclusion if someone tells you that contemporary Christian music lifts their spirit and orients their heart on God and is edifying who are you to tell them it can't be?Do not confuse your own personal experience and inability to enjoy Christian rock with those who can and do enjoy it.

 

Very good post,Poor Richard.

Interesting,indeed.

 

Thanks, Molly.

Odemus, Eric is right: I was generalizing! And I apologize. But as for your comment about Keith Green's music stirring up lust, because some of his songs have a heavy rock beat: I didn't mean to imply that his music, or anybody else's, in and of itself, was strirring up lust in me.

My contention is this: that a song, or any piece of music, is the product of the composers's own spirit, and to a greater or lesser degree is modified or inspired by the spirit of this world-- or by the Spirit of God.

The origin of the term rock'n roll, which everybody should know by now, is an early 20th century Afro-American slang for making whoopee. I'm not upset about that. We're humans; we can have fun. Even a Christian is allowed to have an evening of bliss with a cute young hottie (provided he's married to her); but who in his right mind is going to argue that sex, or our musical expressions of sexual lust, are the good and right means of conveyance for praise and worship of God?

Maybe Keith Green was only doing what a lot of Christian musicians do: writing music in the only style they were ever really familiar with before they got saved.

And rather than generalize, I should say that I find that a style of music is the reflection of the spirtual nature of its originators and chief proponents. Tell me, did Rock originate in the Church? Was "the King" of Rock'n Roll a man full of grace-- or a pill-headed gluttonous philaderer living in a place called Graceland? Let's be honest with ourselves, and call things what they are.

Now, I know we can pull a pig from his little mudpit, wash him up, give him a makeover and slip him into a tuxedo, but he's still just a pig. Maybe he could learn table manners, eat supper at your house and maybe even pass for your sister's boyfriend, but heck, he's still just a pig.

That's what Christian Rock is doing: it's just a pig posing pretty.

 

That's what Christian Rock is doing: it's just a pig posing pretty.

I'm gonna have to disagree with that last point. Christian rock is no longer at that point, it has gotten to the point where a lot of christian music is totally new. For instance, emo. Emo is a relatively new style of music, derived from rock 'n roll. Most of the emo bands I know of are christian bands, and the band that really kick started it all is a christian band. Same thing in some other genres of music, too. Tantrum of the Muse is trying to change metal. They are way more creative than any secular bands I've ever heard. Other metal bands like P.O.D, Earthsuit and Pax 217 are also adding new dimensions to metal, by throwing in some reggae and funk, something I have yet to hear any secular artists do. Ska. At least half of popular ska bands are christian bands. Supertones, Five Iron Frenzy etc.

Christian rock music is no longer just imitating the trends of secular music, they are now creating the trends.

God Bless all

 

totally agree with Odemus. Nothing else really to say. If a certain genre of music builds you up, then listen to that genre of music. The only stipulation, in my mind, is that the lyrics in that music be doctrinally correct. They have to match up with what the Bible says.

In mathematics, you can add new things as long as they work with all previous parts of mathematics. In the same way, we can add things to what we believe as long as they do not conflict with other things that we believe. So, for instance, if christian rock and roll does not go against what is in the Bible, it is a good addition. If music is now being used to evangelize to non-christians, it is a good addition, even though music was never used that way Biblically. It does not go against anything that the Bible teaches.

Just my late night ramblings. (they make sense to me...)

God Bless, hope you can make sense of things.

Matt

 

DHK said:

CCM is simply an attempt to put Christian lyrics to worldly music. It doesn't work.

Let us know when you give up the twelve-tone scale, invented by pagans.

 

Hello, Poor Richard! Welcome aboard and thank you for bringing a fresh way of saying what I've been trying to say. Loved your post.

BTW, Ransom, music is not invented. It is discovered.

Well, Poor Richard. As much as I would love to have you in the forum arguing my side, I have to inform you that unless your profile specifies you as a Baptist you can't post in the Baptist Only forums.

Sorry, bud. That's the rules.

[ June 24, 2002, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

This post was never answered, and the thread was closed. My original main point was that the primary argument that certain forms of music are evil because they appeal to the flesh is based upon the heresy of gnosticsm, which states that all earthly things are evil. The quotes are from Aaron's original reply, the answers are from my follow up post, which was never subsequently addressed. Aaron, or anyone really can adress the questions and comments, since this seemed to obvious thread to dredge this up again.

 

Another interesting point is that when you use the sensuality of the artist to decry the music, you erode your case even more.

The performance of any style of music can be sensual, but in most cases, the notes on a page do not have inherently sensual characteristics, at least not without previous psycological connection to sensual thought or actions.

 

Some of the great composers of classical music were preoccupied with sex (some were likely homosexuals). Did they write early rock and roll? Should a Christian listen to their music?

What about Wagner? Lots of paganism. Was the soundtrack for Nazism. Should Christians listen to and appreciate Wagner?

What about Big Band music? My father (born in 1925) heard many a sermon about how the evil Big Band music (the "young people's noise") was "dancing people to Hell." It was considered the Devil's work and necessarily led to immorality. And look at the lives of the Big Band bandleaders!! Glenn Miller died of a heart attack in a French whorehouse while sampling their services (the Allies invented the story about going missing over the English Channel for morale reasons).

Sorry. This sound like the same old arguments wrapped up in new clothes for today.

 

Dave,

Who said that earthly things were inherently evil? No, not inherently evil. Polluted yes, and by reason of the pollution, evil. But not inherently evil.

The difference is that one idea is Gnostic, and the other is Biblical. Everything on earth will be burned up in the last day. Therefore we do not set our affections upon things on earth. We set them upon things in heaven.

But bringing this back into the realm of music, which is not an object like a rock or a tree, but is communication. It is not merely a vehicle for communication, but is communication itself. It affects our emotions, which again are not objects like a rock or a tree, yet are just as real.

The Scriptures make a difference between evil and holy communications, and fleshly and spiritual "minds." They say to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. The Scriptures never allow the fleshly mind, or anything that appeals to the flesh, a foot in the door.

Therefore, neither can we.

 

But now your just saying that christian rock is evil an your not proveing it. The whole rock is evil thing is just a matter of opinion. I have never thought of un-pure things after listening to any of the christian rock that i listen to. Maybe you should isten to some before you judge it, honestly i cant find any truth in what your saying about how christian rock can only pull you down, i have only been lifted up by it.

[ June 26, 2002, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: SorryDude ]

 

Music is like any other artform, a conduit through which one can express emotion and meaning.Just because someone else associates guitars and drums with scantily clad dancing women snorting cocain in a brothel doesn't mean you have to.Those of us who are uplifted by the music we listen to know it is pleasing to the Lord, apart from that this argument is pointless.

 

"Jesus Christ Superstar" was a blasphemous mockery of the Lord Jesus Christ. It fits what you say perfectly. It was an artform, a conduit through which one can express emotion and meaning. That is exactly what it did. It is what most CCM does. The music acts as a conduit expressing emotion and meaning. That is true. But what kind of emotion, and what kind of meaning? "That which is of the flesh is of the flesh; and that which is of the Spirit is spirit." There is a difference between that which is carnal and that which is spiritual. Music in and of itself is not amoral. It affects one for good or for evil. Good words put to evil music corrupts the message. Music is communication. What are you communicating in your music? Most are simply communicating the same message that the world is; they don't want to be any different.
DHK

 

Alright, putting an end to this right now. With scripture as the final authority you are hereby challenged to substantiate your claim that a particular form of music can of itself be inherently sinful.

In it's time the music of Mozart was considered unsuitable for children's ears because it was thought by many to invoke lustful passion.

Funny, I never got anything like that from the 'Jupiter' symphony.I guess I can't listen to it anymore in light of that.Oh yeah I forgot, Mozart was a very immoral man too.Darn, if only I hadn't seen Amadeus to know that What was I ever doing listening to his music in the first place Oh, my how sinful and unholy it suddenly reveals itself to be now!

That was extreme sarcasm by the way.I do now and always will enjoy classical music despite the lives of the various composers I like.

[ June 26, 2002, 03:40 AM: Message edited by: Odemus ]

 

Aaron said:

BTW, Ransom, music is not invented. It is discovered.

Nice try at changing the subject, Aaron, but I didn't say "music," I said the "twelve-tone scale." Other cultures use different scales, and it would be ethnocentric in the extreme to claim that they have not yet "discovered" music.

 

Odemus said:

Alright, putting an end to this right now. With scripture as the final authority you are hereby challenged to substantiate your claim that a particular form of music can of itself be inherently sinful.

Good luck. I've already been through this with Aaron, and he couldn't stick to the plain meaning of Scripture in context.

 

Then there can be no rational debate on this topic.

 

"All things work for the good for those who love the Lord."

Would this not also apply to the Christian rock music.

You talk about sensuality, but you can create feelings with any other music, including the old hymns.

Aaron, show me in the Bible where it tells us not to listen to Christian rock music or CCM.

It isn't there, is it? The music we listen to is often chosen in the same way that we chose how to wear our clothing. There are some bad clothing, and the modest clothing can be turned into inmodest clothing if you misuse them. The same way with Christian music. It is great, but the way in which it is used should be the final indicator of whether it is good or bad.

In Christ's gracious love,
Teresa

 

Nothing in itself is sinful.

A naked woman-not sinful

A man looking at a naked woman-in what context? Is he her physician?Not sinful

A man looking at and lusting after the woman-There we finally see where the sin is.In the heart of the man.

So if a rock beat causes you to think of something sinful then for you it is.For the rest of us it is just as legitimate a form of expression as reggae or country or a kazoo.