MMF - christian rock is evil

[redwhitenblue]

Each person has a particular conviction to this issue. The conviction does not place all Christians to be under the same conviction. I do not believe Christian rock is evil or ungodly but others do so use the music that you believe is God honoring.

Karen

 

[Mike McK]

Hi, Curtis,

I have played in bands since I was sixteen so I have experience to tell me that rock music CAN be Christian music. In fact, tomorrow we'll be playing at a benefit for a local AIDS hospice (I know, I know, but that's a topic for another thread).

I, too have seen
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> what happens to people with this music <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> and I'm grateful to have had that opportunity.

For me, to have the opportunity to entertain and use my platform to build relationships and even speak about my faith in Christ and about social issues has been a gift from God that I cherish.

I've heard of POD but have never heard their music and don't really know anything about them (or KORN) so I can't comment on them, specifically.

What I can say is that I was involved in the production end of CCM for about seven years and got to know many of the artists personally.

To hear some of the stories about how they were able to take Christ into the mainstream are really inspiring.

They are able to build relationships because of their art that they might not have had otherwise.

I've had many nights that someone would approach me on our break or as we're packing up and ask, "Did I hear that right? Were you singing about God???" and this led to the opportunity to share Christ with them. I've actually had the pleasure to lead people to the Lord, including our own keyboard player, because of my playing rock music. I've got a good friend who plays with a band call 'Greaseband' and he's told me that he's had dozens of opportunities to share the Gospel because of his music.

I'm not really sure how, simply by being a specific genre of music, Christian rock violates Col. 3:16 but, to each his own.

It's hard to believe that a song like "Fire" isn't considered a Christian song (especially since it's lifted from Isaiah). And if "Hymn", "My Love Will Follow You" and "Don't Cry for Me" aren't Christian songs, I can't imagine what is.

 

[Brother Adam]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Curtis Rathburn:
Before I was saved, I played in rock bands for my whole life. I have seen & been a part of what happens to people with this music. Music is a powerful, spiritual force. It is not neutral. How can we chide Billy Ghraham for his support of the RCC, & ignore so called "Christian bands" like P.O.D. playing concerts with secular bands like KORN. Christian music should sound like Christian music. It should be used for God's glory, not to show off talent. It should be based on the word of Christ(Col 3:16). I take a lot of heat, even from "fundamental" baptists on this view, but let them mock. I have experience to tell me that rock music cannot be Christian music.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mr. Curtis:

I have experience to tell me that rock music is Christian music

POD is an interesting case indeed. They have completely broken out of the shell of "CCM" into the mainstream MTV generation secular music industry. There goal is to sound like secular music, infiltrate the secular music business and share the gospel in radical ways. I don't know what I think about there approach or if I agree with them. But I know I can't stop them and if God uses them for His glory who am I to argue? (btw- i know who Korn is and yes they are terrible)

Now not all Christian rock sounds like POD. That is HARD rock. Try listening to Newsboys "Turn your eyes upon Jesus" or Rebecca St. James' "Pray" or better yet Third Days "Your Love oh Lord". I think then you may change your mind that all Christian rock is evil.

God Bless.

UNP, Adam

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Hey there. I was wondering. Do people consider the music of Yes to be evil, I mean their non-Trevor Rabin days. Its rock, but Anderson is very big into religion, and the music transcends a landscape that no other band is capable of presenting. I think people are fooling themselves by saying music is evil. Music is a method of communication. And no song does better at that, especially in these trying times, Yes's Gates of Dellirium.

Really, what is the dividing line between good and evil music? Is it decibels, is it word content, is it how much one's soul is stolen? From those whacky soul searching large congregations, the looks on the people look similar to how I felt when hearing Close to the Edge live. Purely spiritual.

So in conclusion, what is evil? What isn't? And why for a moment is a method of communication banned? I mean evil hard rock groups such as King Crimson are big into redefining the methods of music. To bring sound to chaos and from chaos to bring harmony. At what point is this wrong?

 

[Mike McK]

I like YES and have a couple of their albums. Prog rock isn't really my cup of joe but I like some of the things that they've done. I don't find their music evil.

A lot of the things that Jon Anderson (who, along with Rick Wakeman is now a Christian) said were things that no serious new ager would say.

I always thought they were a little dumb more than anything and always wondered how much of it he really believed and how much of it he said just to play a part.

I agree that music is just a form of communication. Nothing more, less.

Music is not senscient (sp?) or self aware. It is not capable of makng moral choices or practicing free will. It can, by it's very nature, be only as good or evil as the musician intends it to be.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I hear everyone...... but I have to stick by my idea of how Christian music should sound. You should know it when you hear it.

 

[Rockfort]

&lt; I hear everyone...... but I have to stick by my idea of how Christian music should sound. &gt;

At least you aknowledge your idea for what it is.

 

[Mike McK]

Hey Curtis,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> ...but I have to stick by my idea of how Christian music should sound. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's just it, Curtis, there's a big difference between "Christian rock is evil" and "I don't like Christian rock."

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> You should know it when you hear it, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have no problem recognizing WhiteHeart's "Messiah", Bride's "Everybody Knows My Name" or Buddy Miller's "My Love Will Follow You" as Christian music.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Smoke_Eater:
A lot of the things that Jon Anderson (who, along with Rick Wakeman is now a Christian) said were things that no serious new ager would say.

I always thought they were a little dumb more than anything and always wondered how much of it he really believed and how much of it he said just to play a part.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dumb? Anyone who knows just a little of Yes and Jon Anderson knows that the words he sang were the backbone of his soul. He felt it and he meant it and he relayed it in a way very few can. In addition, what albums are you talking about?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Smoke_Eater:
I agree that music is just a form of communication. Nothing more, less.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I must regard that as saying, "Its only a billion dollars. Nothing more." Communication should never be discouraged. Its what bonds all people together. Without communication, we are all singular beings. With communication we can all be interconnected.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Smoke_Eater:
Music is not senscient (sp?) or self aware. It is not capable of makng moral choices or practicing free will. It can, by it's very nature, be only as good or evil as the musician intends it to be.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So where is the line between good music and bad music? Is it within the lyrics, the chords, the fairlighting?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Curtis:
I hear everyone...... but I have to stick by my idea of how Christian music should sound. You should know it when you hear it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But why should a method of communication be restricted? How can you tell that one is worse than the other? Do you just hate loud music? Do you discriminate between the decibels? Or perhaps are you tone deaf and can not appreciate the landscapes and transitions the music has to offer.

 

[Mike McK]

Hi, Jimmy,

Maybe "dumb" wasn't the best choice of words but I just remember shaking my head and thinking, "huh?" when he would launch into some of the in-between song comments.

"Yessongs", "The Yes Album", "Tales From Topographic Oceans", "Tormato", "90125", "Big Generator" a couple other studio and some bootlegs and rarities.

I'm not a big prog rock fan, it's just that my next door neighbor used to be a DJ at WMMR in Philly and he was constantly giving us things from the station.

When I said that music was just a form of communication, I wasn't devaluing it at all. If you've read my previous posts, then you know that I believe very much in the power of music as a form of communication. What I was saying that it's not able to be good or evil in and of itself.

You asked what the line of demarcation is where music becomes good or evil. Honestly? I don't know.

I heard a song once that was a great country song. Beautiful melody, solid musicianship, etc. But when I listened carefully to the words, I realized that he was singing about killing gays and Jews and lynching blacks.

That doesn't make country music bad. It means that some idiot got ahold of a song and decided to use it for his own evil purposes.

If the choice is between music and lyrics, I'd have to say lyrics.

[ October 27, 2001: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well I can't really argue that. Though, for 90125 and Big Generator, you'd have to blame Trevor Rabin more than Jon Anderson.

As to explain "the words" Anderson and Howe managed to right up, especially for Tales of Topographic Oceans, they wanted to make the vocals an instrument. And when you have Anderson and Squire singing, thats a good thing. You are really missing out if you haven't heard Relayer, Close to the Edge, and Going for the One, their best three albums.

But in any case, I just want to know why some people think some music is evil, such as those that hate Christian rock. I think its very arrogent and ignorant to do such a thing. I appreciate your comments.

 

[Aaron]

Music is not neutral. Music has character, and its character should reflect those character qualities that God desires to develop in His children.

Music that is sensual (appealing to the flesh) is out. Music that appeals to the mind and is conducive to self-control and spirituality is in.

Now someone will say that no one can really tell what is sensual and what is not. To them I pose a question previously asked to which I received no satisfactory reply.

The Scriptures teach that God hates a proud look, Prov. 6:17. (The character quality that God desires is humility). Yet, there is no description about what a proud look looks like, nor is their on what a humble look looks like. Nothing about how one positions his eyebrows, his eye lids, tilts his head, etc.

Now, how do we know when someone is communicating pride in their look? We do know, but how? Wouldn't something this important to God be spelled out for us in the Scriptures (borrowing a common CCM justification)?

Surely someone could go to those who have studied non-verbal communication and have identified the traits common to certain attitudes, but then that would be bringing science into the discussion, and we should stick to the Bible.

 

[redwhitenblue]

Aaron,

In all my days of listening to Christian rock music, I have never once felt sensual or sexual in any manner. I have a hard time with the study of plants and music too, just because a plant reacts in a certain way to a certain type of music I do not believe that should place any weight on the results of how people react to it. Even certain plants need certain things to grow and that does differ for plants. Some need a lot of water and sun and others do not. So does that mean we need to sit on a window seal to grow?

I don't mean to belittle anyone here, it just doesn't make any sense to me where plants are concerned.

Karen

 

[Brother Adam]

"Music that is sensual (appealing to the flesh) is out. Music that appeals to the mind and is conducive to self-control and spirituality is in."

If you mean appealing to the flesh as in sexual or something sinful- I fully agree. Yet not all rock music is sensual.

UNP, Adam

 

[Mike McK]

Aaron,

That doesn't work because you're starting with a faulty premise.

In the same way that it's the intent behind a song that makes it good or bad, it's not the "proud look" itself that God hates. It's the pride behind it.

Mike

 

[Aaron]

Smoke,

There are lots of places in the Scriptures where God says that He hates pride. The verse I quoted clearly says that He hates a proud look.

But that doesn't deal with my question. We know when someone is throwing us an arrogant look. (BTW, those who have studied it will say that the basic non-verbal gestures of pride or dominance are universal. In other words, NOT determined by culture.) How do we know?


Karen,

I would say that you have been desensitized to the sensuality in rock music having been exposed to it so much. It would be much like an Amish boy who visited the big city for the first time. At first, the short skirts and halter tops put hair on his chest. But after a few weeks he no longer noticed the effect. It is not that he is no longer affected, it is that he has grown accustomed to it.

I would say that it is the same in your case. (I know you'll hate me for even suggesting it ) But not just yours, everyone who has given himself to the pop culture.

I grew up with TV. For the first five years of my marriage we had no television. Then we finally broke down and bought one. I was shocked watching the reruns of shows that I watched regularly growing up. How is it that I wasn't shocked earlier? Because I was immersed in the pop culture I viewed those things as normal.

Adam,

Why do you only limit it to the sexual apetite? When Jesus was tempted through the lusts of the flesh, it was suggested to him that he turn stones to bread to satisfy his hunger. As far as your statement that not all rock music is sexual, see my reply to Karen. You also contradict every rock entertainer who ever commented on the subject from the 1950's to today.

[ October 28, 2001: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

[Mike McK]

Jimmy,

You said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> But in any case, I just want to know why some people think some music evil such as those who hate Christian rock. I think it is very arrogant and ignorant to do such a thing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know about arrogant but you may have a point with ignorant.

Jimmy, I'm going to tell you something that I really don't like to talk about because it's embarrassing. Don't laugh.

When I was seventeen I "got saved". The first thing I did was to go out and cut my hair and burn all of my records and books. I was really swept up in the whole Fletcher Brothers/Peters Brothers scene.

In case you don't know, Fletcher A. Brothers was a guy who made all sorts of goofy accusations about rock artists, such as Bruce Springsteen being a pedophile, the Eagles being Satanists and Alice Cooper being a Satanist who allowed evil spirits to possess him during his live shows. If you've ever read Alice's (he's a Christian now, by the way) autobiography, you know that that's not true.

Anyway, I was brainwashed into believing that virtually everything was evil. Books, museums, everthing. I ended up alienating virtually all of my friends and lost many good ones.

Eventually, hard times came and I fell away from the church because I had insulated myself to the point that I had no foundation for my faith. I had never learned how to discern or to live out my faith in the real world.

Instead of learning how to deal with obsticles, I just pretended that they weren't there.

Come to find out, about six months later, that I wasn't a Christian at all, merely playing religious games.

I read some books in the time that I had left the church, most notably Tony Campolo's "The Kingdom of God is a Party" and "Who Switched the Price Tags", that caused me to realize that I had been lied to.

By the way, I would strongly recomend that anti-rockers read "Too Christian/TooPagan" by Dick Staub, "Seeds of Change" by Kerry Livgren (the founder of Kansas) or "Don't Stop the Music" by Dana Key to gain an artist's perspective on mainstream rock and Christian rock, respectively.

I also really started studying the Bible and one of the things that struck me about how Jesus interacted with the pagans around him. I found that He genuinely enjoyed their company. He went to their parties, ate at their houses, drank wine with them and spent time with them socially.

This was really liberating for me. I realized that there is a great big world that God created for me to enjoy and be a part of. (And, yes, Aaron I know what you're going to say but "be not of the world" is referring to not being a partner in sin, not enjoying a genre of music.)

I would never judge anyone else's salvation, this was just my experience, but I think that some here reject rock music for the same reasons that I did. I think that they feel insecure abut their faith and that they just want to remove anything that makes them uncomfortable.

You've noticed, I'm sure, that the "anti-rockers" almost never bother to get their facts straight about rock music and I think that says a lot about where they're coming from.

Actually, having thought about it, you may have had a point with "arrogant", too.

There was one "anti-rocker" here who claimed to be a drummer and that certain beats were evil but when asked which beats, specifically, were evil he admitted that they weren't evil, after all.

In the same way, no one can really define what is "sensual" or what "appeals to the flesh" because the music affects everyone differently.

If music really affects them the way they claim, then by all means, they should stay away from it.

But it's something that I enjoy, that I've found a lot of beauty in and that God is allowing me to be a part of. So why hassle those of us who don't have a problem discerning between what is good and what isn't?

A very long answer to a very short question but I hope that answers it for you, Jimmy.

Mike

P.S. The fundraiser we played last night raised just under $9500.00.

[ October 28, 2001: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[Mike McK]

Aaron,

I looked up Proverbs 6:17 in several different resources and for some reason, many of them don't go into all of the "seven things that God hates" but only a couple of them. Why? I don't know.

One of the commentaries I went to was Matthew Henry's.

In keeping with BaptistBoard tradition, it's a couple hundred years old and he says that "proud look" refers to <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> haughtiness, conceit of ourselves and contempt of others <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> and not to the physical act, itself.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> You also contradict every rock entertainer who ever commented on it from the 1950's to today<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now wait a second, you're telling me that you've read every comment by every rock artist from the 1950's to today?

May I ask what Johnny Burleson had to say? How about Freddie Fender or Wanda Jackson? What were their comments on the nature of rock and roll?

[ October 28, 2001: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[Brother Adam]

"Adam,

Why do you only limit it to the sexual apetite? When Jesus was tempted through the lusts of the flesh, it was suggested to him that he turn stones to bread to satisfy his hunger. As far as your statement that not all rock music is sexual, see my reply to Karen. You also contradict every rock entertainer who ever commented on the subject from the 1950's to today."

Aaron- are you then saying that any music that has any physical affect on us is evil? I better throw my hymnal out right away then. I should never be caught singing Amazing Grace again, because that has an effect on me.

UNP, Adam