MMF - Christian rock is not evil

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron:


Which being interpreted is:

"If you all walked and talked like the, the world would love you!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually it was, "After you do all your hard work to help sustain yourself and family for another day, you can have no worldly pleasures such as alcohol." There is a reason Mormons live in Utah. They were beat up and kicked out of everywhere else they lived.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:


Jimmy, Blasphemy is not just speaking against God, it is also speaking irreverently against God. There is the difference. Carmen may not speak directly against God, like Marilyn Manson, but he speaks irreverently about God, which is also blasphemy.
Concerning people getting saved, the Bible is very clear. God uses His Word. "It pleased Him by the foolishness of preaching..." "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." (1Cor.1:18) No where in the Bible does God use music to bring people to Christ. He uses the preaching of His Word. Christian music is for the edifying of God's people.
DHK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen!!!! Stick to you'r guns!!! I have said the same thing and heard in return..." just because the Bible doesn't tell us to sing to the unsaved, doesn't mean we shouldn't...."
This is the thought process that has brought us such things as confession, sacraments, purgatory, faith plus works, prayers to Mary, & other such unscriptual blasphemy. The Bible is very clear on music. We are to preach to the unsaved & sing to each other.

 

Aaron,
That is I guess where we will have to agree to disagree. If a person who sang a song, or recorded a song, causes damage to the morality of the song, or the ability of someone else to use it, than our hymnal has been seriously marred by Elvis Presley, as well as a very large contingent of Country & Western Music!

I believe music should be evaluated solely on its merits, Now we agree more than you might think, since I do believe that there is a different set of guidelines that should be imposed on music to be used in Worship services. They are guidelines of appropriateness, however, not moral statements about the music.

I believe that issues of who sang it, who recorded it, etc, are more applicable to the appropriateness of a piece of music rather than its moral value. In that you may be correct as to some music being innappropriate for a Worship service. We would probably disagree however, when it came to picking out the music for this year's Christmas program

Mr Curtis,
You wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>just because the Bible doesn't tell us to sing to the unsaved, doesn't mean we shouldn't...."
This is the thought process that has brought us such things as confession, sacraments, purgatory, faith plus works, prayers to Mary, & other such unscriptual blasphemy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually what brought us that blasphemy is the same thing that brought the Jews laws about not walking more than X number of steps on the sabbath, and when the lame man Jesus healed at the pool carried his bed, they were more concerned about his violation of the sabbath, than the fact that he had been healed. People who are more concerned with follwing a system of works, than with their relationship with Christ, that is what brought us all of these things.

Its called adding stuff to the Bible, it happens all the time. Especially when it comes to dealing with music.

 

DHK said:

You equate the rebellious angry-filled voices of rock singers to Holy Spirit-filled preachers emphasizing a point in Scripture. Ludicrous!

You equate the rebellious angry-filled voices of pseudo-fundamentalist pulpit shouters to Holy Spirit-filled musicians singing passionately about their relationship with God. Ludicrous!

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by redwhitenblue:
The bible says to go out to the highways and compel them to come in that my house may be full....compeling is to draw them in. It doesn't say in the bible to use music to reach the unsaved, the problem I have is that some are so closed minded to the fact that preaching is not limited to standing behind a pulpit and talking to a congregation. Preaching is telling the truth of scriptures, and you can do this thru many means and not just as a preacher does.

karen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If CCM artists, and those who promote that genre of music, are so concerned about winning the lost, then why don't they become missionaries and "go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mk.16:15). You don't need a pulpit to preach. Go to your neighbor and witness. Go to a foreign field and do the same. What is the motive of Carmen: money, or the salvation of souls? "By their fruits ye shall know them." Are dedicated fans of CCM music willing to give it all up and go to a foreign mission field where they will never hear that kind of music again? What comes first: the world or Christ? (Rom.12;1,2; Lk.9:23)
DHK

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:


If CCM artists, and those who promote that genre of music, are so concerned about winning the lost, then why don't they become missionaries and "go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mk.16:15). You don't need a pulpit to preach. Go to your neighbor and witness. Go to a foreign field and do the same. What is the motive of Carmen: money, or the salvation of souls? "By their fruits ye shall know them." Are dedicated fans of CCM music willing to give it all up and go to a foreign mission field where they will never hear that kind of music again? What comes first: the world or Christ? (Rom.12;1,2; Lk.9:23)
DHK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What about these huge ministries. How many of these people preaching do so in such expensive suits. How come these buildings are so lavish. How come some networks have these extravagent sets, such as TBN.

Why do they do it through music? Well, music can be made available to millions upon millions of people. They do it because god called on them to use the gifts he gave them.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jimmy Higgins:


What about these huge ministries. How many of these people preaching do so in such expensive suits. How come these buildings are so lavish. How come some networks have these extravagent sets, such as TBN.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I remember correctly Jimmy, your interests lie in philosopy, and you are somewhat of an atheist posting in a Baptist ministries forum. This would account for your lack of understanding that such ministries as TBN are as far from Baptist as one could get. Most Baptists, especially fundamental Baptists that I am associated with, have a missions program. Their churches support missionaries both at home and abroad. Their people give sacrificially so that these missionaries may be supported in their ministries. It is the Bible, not I, that says,
1 Cor.1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize (or sing), but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1 Cor.2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words (and with singing and acting)of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
(Parantheses added for effect)

To my knowledge, the Great Commission was never rescinded.
DHK

[ November 12, 2001: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

I have to "jump aboard" and say that PREACHING is first and foremost. Remember, I am a full-time Minister of Music in an independent, Baptist church. You can imagine that I would love to say MUSIC was number one, but I can't say so in good conscience. Yes, we can use other formats to ENHANCE preaching, but the point is that all other VENUES are to pave the way to the good, old-fashion exposition of God's Word via preaching. Sorry, Jimmy, there is no other answer or way of looking at this issue.

[ November 12, 2001: Message edited by: Daniel ]

 

I see that this thread has evolved into a discussion about music IN church. I personally am not prepared to hear contemporary Christian music in place of the hymns that I know and love. But when I turn on my radio at home, as do many people of all ages, I don't expect to hear "A Mighty Fortress." This brings me to an interesting point, something I JUST learned this year! Many of the old hymns were based on....(get this)...drinking songs. Yes, drinking songs which attracted people from the streets.

Want to know more?
http://www.uml.edu/Dept/History/ArtHistory/compart/4med5.html

Read or skim down to the fifth or sixth paragraph.

Or go back to the very beginning of this article: http://www.uml.edu/Dept/History/ArtHistory/compart/3christ.html

Again, it has always been a question of taste just as well as it has been a reflection of a changing society. I don't necessarily want Jars of Clay to play a gig at my little Baptist Church, but I wouldn't object to hearing their music coming from my daughter's radio.

In parting, I will leave you with this (found on yet another website):

How Can Christian Rock Songs Be "New Songs"?
This is another often-used question by critics. Verses used to back it up include :

"Sing to him a new song". (Psalm 33:3)

"He put a new song in my mouth, a hymn of praise to our God." (Psalm 40:3)

"I will sing a new song to you, O God; on the ten-stringed lyre I will make music to you..." (Psalm 144:9)

"Praise the Lord. Sing to the Lord a new song, his praise in the assembly of the saints." (Psalm 149:1)

 

I'm with Margie personally having been in a service where contemporary Christian (rock) was used. While I like and knew the songs they didn't put me in a frame of worship. Though when I'm not in formal worship and because I like music with a beat and 'lectric geeters. Christian Rock is good in that because we need to be very careful with what goes into the old grey matter (into the heart of man). To listen to the music I like its either Christian rock or nothing since what the world has to offer is so completely full of the world. I think this also has to do with the seperation thing in another thread. Being in and not of sort of thing.

 

So are people in hear contending that all other music, than Christian Music is evil?

 

No, you aren't hearing that from me. However, that sounds like a NEW topic that you might post on a new thread.

My understanding is that this discussion is about the validity of Christian rock as a legitimate means of reaching people, specifically, is Christian rock (NOT) evil?
I believe I've stated my position.

 

So the issue is whether it is a false idol, so to speak. If it "saves" souls with non-violent and rather unharmful tools why not allow it?

 

Karen,

Carman doesn't charge anything for his shows. At least not when I was involved in Christian music. We had him at Creation one year and he was... interesting.

DHK,

Both Michael Card and Rich Mullins, before his death, were heavily into missions. At the time of his death, Mullins only toured a few months out of the year because he was a missionary and church planter on an indian reservation in South Dakota (North Dakota?).

Michael Card has been involved with missions in eastern Europe and China.

Twila Paris' father founded Youth With a Mission.

Randy Stonehill has been active in Guatamalan and Honduran missions.

More importantly, you have to remember that not everyone is called to a "foreign" moission field.

 

Karen,
I went to Carman's website and found that he does have a nonprofit organization. But I remain very skeptical of it for a number of reasons. There are a number of non-profit organizations run by preachers that I would never donate to. Peter Popov is one of them. "Just send me your gift of so much money and I'll send you this vial of miracle working water from Russia." Yeah, Right!! A tax-
shelter and a money-making scheme for a fraud!

Now look what I find at Carman's site:
"For everyone who contributes $1000 or more to this outreach, I want to send you two treasured mementos of this ministry."
---No thank-youuuuuuuu!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Under "Prayer," I found this request, which I found ironic (sincere, but ironic).
Dear Carman, Please pray for my son. He has been involved with Satanic music, etc. and was scared enough to get away. We attended your concert in April and it changed our lives. Even though he is going to church and reading the Bible he says he feels confused. I think it's from the Satanic church and music that still has an influence on him. Please help us pray. - A Mom from Minnesota
--Rock music in its very nature is rebellious. Perhaps if he stopped listening to Carman's music all together, then he wouldn't be confused any more.

Why do CCM artists go abroad? "Since the religious rockers almost always maintain that they are simply trying to reach people for Jesus, then why not go totally secular, and leave out the appeal to the church altogether? Why bother with the crowd that's already saved? (Of course, since about 80% of religious rockers' income is derived through Christian bookstores, we already know the answer to that question.) It is our conviction that the religious rockers are not reaching the lost, but are instead making disciples to their rock music from the churched kids attending their concerts or playing their recordings. In fact, there is a good chance that the church could be losing the so-called "found" by bringing rock music into the churches."
"Jesus said that when He was lifted up, He would draw all men to Himself. Why then would the Holy Spirit need help today from the world's music in drawing people to Christ? Why do the "musical soul-winners" think they can attract people for God by using the world's standards and the world's music, when the net effect of the music is to basically stir the flesh and the emotions rather than stir a love for God?" (Biblical Discernment Ministries)
DHK

 

What we are down to here is the questioning of the singers' motives. This may be very dangerous ground. This caution may sound funny coming from a musical conservative like me, but I have to practice consistency in all areas of my Christian walk. I am not for one second defending Carmen. Those that know me from my posts know I am not able to justify what he and others seem to do in the same of Christ, but I also can't categorically judge what is in their hearts. Yes, fellow conservatives, I am keenly aware of the "by their fruits ye shall know them" verse, but I am cautious enough to let God be God. I am sane enough to stay away from what he is doing, but I have no divine right to condemn him. That is God's ulitmate territory. Some will read this and have a knee-jerk reaction that I am talking in circles. I am actually talking in consistent principles that I have tried to espouse from day one that I joined this board. We need to go back to square one and ask the Holy Spirit thinks of what is being done in Jesus' name. He will answer. Listen for the still small voice. You will have to turn the music down a notch or two to hear him, however.

[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: Daniel ]

 

Aside from the fact that the issue here is whether or not rock and roll is evil or not, You're missing a very important point: Carman is NOT rock and roll.

He is a bad Vegas lounge act. He is what would happen if Wayne Newton and Benny Hinn had a baby.

If you want to pick an Christian artist to represent rock, how about Bride, WhiteHeart or Randy stonehill?