MMF - Contemporary/band vs hymns/piano in worship service.

Once again, where is the scriptural warrant for these criteria, or the proof that these elements make people sin? These are purely cultural differences.

Like I just told Aaron a couple of times, in most pop music it is only the percussion that is accented on the even beats. If you listen to the actual chords and bass, they are usually accented on the odd, so this whole "accent" and
"syncopation" issue proves nothing. Plus, where do you draw the line in determining what is a "driving" beat. Contemporary music critics are trying to rule out everything except classical/traditional, but there is a wide range of contemporary sounds being used that do not fit these stereotypes or match the excesses of say, hard rock.

 

I agree that the lyrics must be doctrinally correct. However, music goes through cycles. It's good to have a balance of "love" and "nature" with doctrinally orientated music. Worship involves acknowledging who He is as well as praising Him.

The "slurring and sliding" is usually NOT written into the music. It is usually a method of interpretation by the performer. I will neither defend nor condemn it. All performers interpret music. Music rarely (if ever) is played precisely as written. It's called expression. If you doubt, consider "Hark, the Herald Angels Sing". No one ever sings the refrain as written.

I agree that harmony should show some creativity. Then why do most hymns follow the I-IV-V-I chord pattern and the A-B melody pattern?

The problem with this is that there are more time signatures than 4/4 time. Checking my hymnal there's 12/8,6/8,3/4,9/8,3/2,2/2,6/4 and more. So, I ask how do these various and sundry time signatures fall into the "ONE-two-THREE-four" pattern? Do we decide that we will no longer listen to Fanny Crosby's music since she wrote some of her music in 6/8 time?

Btw, tension is what prevents a piece of music from becoming boring. How many song leaders create tension by changing the key up a step while singing? That creates tension and makes the song more interesting to sing as well.

Syncopation is so bad that the composer of "Wonderful Grace of Jesus" used it.

Finally, rhythm along with tonality creates the melody. Take away or diminish rhythm and there is no melody.

Steve

 

What syncopation in "Wonderful Grace of Jesus"?

Brother, you were waxing eloquent, but you mis-spoke on the above...

 

The way that it is arranged in the hymnal that I'm looking at, the very first phrase of the hymn (in 4/4 time) has a quarter note, dotted eighth, sixteenth, then quarter. The dotted eighth forces an emphasis on the 2nd beat and a slight de-emphasis on the third beat. This is done to fit a 3 syllable word into two beats. Natural pronunciation tends to emphasis the second syllable ("d" sound is stronger than "w"). In short, there's a syncopation of the first three beats forcing a slight over-emphasis on the second beat (syllable). This gives the hymn a fresh sound to it.

It's difficult to make hard and fast rules about syncopation or any other musical device. We each bring our own likes and dislikes to the discussion. The key is to seperate fact from opinion.

Steve

 

Steve...my post of last night was little on the "tongue-in-cheek" aside, brother. I knew what you were trying to say...I was must having a little fun with you in a STRICT musical sense. Some people have just enough music knowledge to be dangerous!

Syncopation as I mean and teach it to my music students is more along the lines of a an eighth note followed by a quarter note followed by an eighth note. I'm sure you know where I am coming from with that definition. "Wonderful Grace..." does not fit the "classic definition" of musical syncopation. Even the metrical pulse still emphasizes beats 1 and 3...no big deal. Musical correctness was not the point of your first post. I understand that.

Word of caution: be prepared for the battle you've engaged.

 

No, I am not judging anyone. Molly made her convictions completely clear. There is no question she has a conscience toward rock or pop styles of music. Her main concern is what her children will be exposed to. I can only advise based on what she has said. According to her own evaluation of the situation, she must leave the church.

And, yes. Good words with bad music makes the song inappropriate if not evil.

 

I've read the posts in this thread.

It seems the CCM group makes the same kind of assumptions of which they accuse the Traditional group.

Where in the Scriptures is it stated that worship must be creative?

Boring? According to the Scriptures, what should be the source of our cheer as Christians?

According to the Scriptures to what should we give attention in our assemblies?

Upon what New Testament passage can you find a basis for a music program in church?

 

Daniel-
If you note the time stamp of my post, I had a case of insomnia. I should not be allowed around keyboards or other sharp instruments when I am unable to sleep like that. There should be warning signs on those things!!!

All kidding aside, I'm trying to remember back some 27 years to my High School music theory class. If I remember correctly a dotted note also syncopated the rhythm. For example a dotted quarter and an eighth would create emphasis on the upbeat of the second beat. Please feel free to correct as necessary, it's been a while.

Although some of my post was not in the strict traditional of musical sense. I think you got my point. It's close to impossible to write a piece of music according to somewhat arbitrary guidelines.

Thanks for the warning. My flame proof suit is in the mail...

Steve

 

I personaly don't care for the contempory music because I don't hear or feel God in them. I am not saying there are not good contempory songs but I seem to hear more wordly words with no spiritual meaning. Some people however may feel what I don't through the music. Music is an important part of the service as is anything that takes place at church. If your family feels uncomfortable about the church then maybe that isn't the right church for you. Pray and let God lead you in this. ~Sheila~

 

Aaron-
I've read through many threads in this forum. As of yet, I haven't seen a convincing argument for your position. While I find your view intriguing, I'm afraid the discussion turns into a stalemate. Both sides of the discussion have to argue from silence. There simply isn't enough evidence (no verse directly addressing the issue) for either side. Making this a rather futile discussion.

Steve

 

Steve...the rhythm you cite is not really syncopation in the classic sense. You need an intentional emphasis on an off-beat to qualify as classic syncopation (eg. the emphasis pushing to the 2nd beat or the 4th beat in a four beat meaure for example...eighth-quarter-eighth, etc.)...hope this helps, brother. I, too, get rusty on the many academic subjects I've taught if I don't continually teach those subjects...point understood...just be careful in this music forum to avoid getting too technical without absolute precision in what you cite as examples...you'll get slaughtered....word to the wise.

 

Amen, to that one Sheila.
Let God lead you, not yur feelings.

In Christ's gracious love,
Teresa

 

Here is a Contemporary Christian song with sound Biblical basis. Who can tell me where the group got their lyrics?

"I will sing to the Lord, for he is highly exalted. The horse and its rider has hurled into the sea.
The Lord is my strentgh and my song; he has become my salvation. He is my God, and I will praise him, my father's God and I will exalt him."

These are lyrics to a Contemporary Christian song. Tell me where the faulty doctrine is. The church that I attend does not have a lot of choruses, but when we do sing them our hearts are worshiping God, not music or anyone else.

Who are any of us to say who should be at what church? Before we judge the music, let us judge the doctrine. If we, then, find faulty doctrine then we should be thinking if we should be there or not.

Just because a generation worships differently than you or I does not mean that they are worshiping in vain. I admit that my worship style is very mixed. When I am at home I listen to Contemperary Music, but I also play the hymns of old. We do not sing the same songs that Jesus sang, so does that mean that our worship is in vain? No, it does not. It just means that we live in a different time and people have written songs of praise to our God and Savior. If our hearts are not in the right place, then our worship is in vain. If it is in the place that it should be, focused on God, then whatever music that we sing, granted the lyrics should be doctorinally correct, is worship in the ears of God.

In Christ's gracious love,
Teresa

 

</font>[/QUOTE]So check your doctrine at the door and run your life by your feelings. What does Scripture have to say about it:
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
--- The first thing that these believers continued in was doctrine. It was most important in their service. Not music, not worship, doctrine! In the early church, sermons were emphasized. In a Biblical church sermons are emphasized. We do not have a "worship" service in our church. I believe that is a misnomer. We sing three or four hymns, have an opening word of prayer, announcements, take up an offering, and the Word of God is preached. The emphasis is on the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. A typical message of an hour long service is 45 minutes. Our people are taught in the Word. We listen to Biblical exposition. You don't reach people by music; you reach people by the Word of God.

Rom.1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

1Cor.1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
--- Christ did not send Paul to baptize, play or sing music, worship, have worship services, but to preach the gospel. His services were centered around the preaching of the gospel.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
--- He didn't sing and worship til midnight. He preached.
Acts 20:11 When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.
--- Even after Eutychus had fallen asleep, fallen from the loft, and been raised from the dead, he continued preaching until the break of day. He didn't sing; he preached.
Where in the New Testament do you get this idea that music is more important? Where do you get this idea that we are to have "worship" services? Our services are primarily for the preaching and teaching of the Word of God, that the saints of God might be edified and taught in the Word, and also that they might have fellowship. Worship is primarily done at home. It is mostly private done between you and God as you seek His face on your knees.
DHK

 

I just wanted to say to Baptistforever that, you should feel God, in music. Songs are a why of worshipping our Lord. The words my be spiritual but even satan can say spiritual words but you can tell the differnce in wordly words and true spiritual words when you feel the presence of the Lord. I am not trying to condem you or anyone else if you like contempory music. All I said is I don't like it. I can't say I don't like any of it because I haven't heard all the contempory songs. One I can remember that I know alot of people like, and I don't is, one that speaks of playing football in heaven. This is pretty worldly thinking. I was just trying to answer Molly's question and let her know my personal feelings. I am sorry if I affended you or anyone else by my answer. God made us all different and we will enjoy different things. The music I choose to listen to is my chose as is everyone elses. I just choose to listen to music that I feel God speak to me through. If the preacher at a church I was attending didn't have the power of God speaking through him in the messages I would choose to find one who did, as I would with music. Just like with anything else, one church is not right for everyone. I think as christians, we can all agree that we should, be in pray that God will lead Molly and her family to make the right chose about the church. ~Sheila~

 

</font>[/QUOTE]So check your doctrine at the door and run your life by your feelings. What does Scripture have to say about it:
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
--- The first thing that these believers continued in was doctrine. It was most important in their service. Not music, not worship, doctrine! In the early church, sermons were emphasized. In a Biblical church sermons are emphasized. We do not have a "worship" service in our church. I believe that is a misnomer. We sing three or four hymns, have an opening word of prayer, announcements, take up an offering, and the Word of God is preached. The emphasis is on the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. A typical message of an hour long service is 45 minutes. Our people are taught in the Word. We listen to Biblical exposition. You don't reach people by music; you reach people by the Word of God.

Rom.1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

1Cor.1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
--- Christ did not send Paul to baptize, play or sing music, worship, have worship services, but to preach the gospel. His services were centered around the preaching of the gospel.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
--- He didn't sing and worship til midnight. He preached.
Acts 20:11 When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.
--- Even after Eutychus had fallen asleep, fallen from the loft, and been raised from the dead, he continued preaching until the break of day. He didn't sing; he preached.
Where in the New Testament do you get this idea that music is more important? Where do you get this idea that we are to have "worship" services? Our services are primarily for the preaching and teaching of the Word of God, that the saints of God might be edified and taught in the Word, and also that they might have fellowship. Worship is primarily done at home. It is mostly private done between you and God as you seek His face on your knees.
DHK</font>[/QUOTE]DHK this was not my quote. Baptistforever put this in her post with my quote.

 

</font>[/QUOTE]So check your doctrine at the door and run your life by your feelings. What does Scripture have to say about it:
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
--- The first thing that these believers continued in was doctrine. It was most important in their service. Not music, not worship, doctrine! In the early church, sermons were emphasized. In a Biblical church sermons are emphasized. We do not have a "worship" service in our church. I believe that is a misnomer. We sing three or four hymns, have an opening word of prayer, announcements, take up an offering, and the Word of God is preached. The emphasis is on the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. A typical message of an hour long service is 45 minutes. Our people are taught in the Word. We listen to Biblical exposition. You don't reach people by music; you reach people by the Word of God.

Rom.1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

1Cor.1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
--- Christ did not send Paul to baptize, play or sing music, worship, have worship services, but to preach the gospel. His services were centered around the preaching of the gospel.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
--- He didn't sing and worship til midnight. He preached.
Acts 20:11 When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.
--- Even after Eutychus had fallen asleep, fallen from the loft, and been raised from the dead, he continued preaching until the break of day. He didn't sing; he preached.
Where in the New Testament do you get this idea that music is more important? Where do you get this idea that we are to have "worship" services? Our services are primarily for the preaching and teaching of the Word of God, that the saints of God might be edified and taught in the Word, and also that they might have fellowship. Worship is primarily done at home. It is mostly private done between you and God as you seek His face on your knees.
DHK</font>[/QUOTE]DHK this was not my quote. Baptistforever put this in her post with my quote.