MMF - Contemporary Music at Church

[Ransom]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jeronimo:
The key words here are "one time in history." The main reason I am and many others are against CCM is that it is part of the world. . . . We Christians are supposed to be separated from the world, so we should not listen to CCM.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Er . . . the last time I checked, the world didn't listen to CCM. Most of the criticism I have heard from my non-Christian friends is either that the music is too propagandistic (i.e. it's blatantly Christian, and often evangelistic, in its subject matter), or it's inferior.

If the world listened to CCM, it would be as easy to pick up a Supertones album at the local record store as a Tool album. But the truth is that most CCM is marketed by Christians, for Christians, and at Christians. It's not just separated, it's ghettoized.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
People who do so are denying God's Word. They don't obey the Bible when saying "Be not conformed to this world..." When hymns were being considered bad music, it was part of the world. Today it is not, so it isn't bad not to listen to it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So whether or not something is "worldly" has to do with how old it is?

Does this mean that if I should go back to school, I could live the life of a bohemian and a libertine because there aren't any more bohemians, and therefore they're not part of the world any more? Or that I could grow my hair long, wear beads and tie-died shirts, tune in, turn on and drop out because the hippie culture is no longer part of the world?

The thing I don't get is this: no anti-CCM advocates ever have any trouble expressing their views in English, despite the fact that:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>English was invented by pagans.
<LI>The world speaks English. Christians are called out of the world, so we should not use the world's language.
<LI>English has been used to produce works of ungodly philosophy and vile pornography. How can such a filthy language possibly be used of God? We most certainly should never translate the Bible into English; an English Bible is a contradiction, just like a pornographic Bible or a drug-use Bible.
[/list]

 

[jeronimo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ransom:


Er . . . the last time I checked, the world didn't listen to CCM.
If the world listened to CCM, it would be as easy to pick up a Supertones album at the local record store as a Tool album. But the truth is that most CCM is marketed by Christians, for Christians, and at Christians. It's not just separated, it's ghettoized.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excuse me, but Wal-Mart and K-Mart sell CCM. I have seen it there. Did you know that CCM is placed in the Rock section. It isn't always labeled CCM. Bill Gaither's music is placed under the Christian Artist sections. I haven't been able to figure out why the world would put CCM under a different category than the Christian Artist section.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
So whether or not something is "worldly" has to do with how old it is?

Does this mean that if I should go back to school, I could live the life of a bohemian and a libertine because there aren't any more bohemians, and therefore they're not part of the world any more? Or that I could grow my hair long, wear beads and tie-died shirts, tune in, turn on and drop out because the hippie culture is no longer part of the world?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I knew what a bohemian was, then I would reply. I can reply to the hippie part though. Doesn't the Bible say it is a shame to have long hair??? Yeah, I thought so too. I would have to say that I don't think God would enjoy you becoming a hippie. Even though it is old, people still know that it is worldly. People don't think of hymns as worldy music.

I also want to know what your definition of worldly is. I would really appreciate this.

 

[Daniel]

Wow! The thoughts expressed here are exactly what I thought they would be! I am a veteran Minister of Music/Christian School Music teacher/private music instructor. I've naturally heard all these arguments many times before (except some of the stuff that RANSOM said...those things might have been a little "off the edge"...) Nevertheless, this is a hotly debated topic on local churches. Of all the posts I read, Aaron is the most cohesive, lucid expositor. Rather than an overdose of opinion this and opinion that, he uses logic and careful exegesis of scripture. You are to be commended, brother. For in the final analysis, only clear-cut scripture exposition will help. NO I'M NOT OING TO DO THAGT AT THIS TIME. I am just introducing myself and opening myself up for questions (and "rockets"). I know I will not satisy everyone. I've long since learned that you cannot please all the people all the time (Lincoln). But let the discussions/questions begin.....

 

[Daniel]

Wow! The thoughts expressed here are exactly what I thought they would be! I am a veteran Minister of Music/Christian School Music teacher/private music instructor. I've naturally heard all these arguments many times before (except some of the stuff that RANSOM said...those things might have been a little "off the edge"...) Nevertheless, this is a hotly debated topic on local churches. Of all the posts I read, Aaron is the most cohesive, lucid expositor. Rather than an overdose of opinion this and opinion that, he uses logic and careful exegesis of scripture. You are to be commended, brother. For in the final analysis, only clear-cut scripture exposition will help. NO I'M NOT GOING TO DO THAT AT THIS TIME. I am just introducing myself and opening myself up for questions (and "rockets"). I know I will not satisy everyone. I've long since learned that you cannot please all the people all the time (Lincoln). But let the discussions/questions begin.....

 

[preacher]

Daniel:
Since you're in the music ministry I have a question. Would you agree there's a danger in music, any music, cause' of the way it can play on the emotions? I've been in many
different services where the altar would fill up during a "special singing", but the people would sit stone faced during the preaching, if there even was any preaching.
As for ccm, I learned a long time ago, if it
looks like the world, acts like the world,
sounds like the world, then it's usually of the world. And yes then that would include
many other forms of "christian" music.

 

[Daniel]

Preacher:
You are on the right track with your thoughts, but you need to be very careful of one thing--music's emotional nature. Please recall that music was OFTEN an emotional response to something that had occurred around the singer(s)/musician. Examples: song of Miriam after crossing the Red Sea; various Psalms of David; many others. Music is the EXPRESSION OF THE HEART to God. Where we have to be careful is in the area of which you wrote--decisions. All lasting spiritual decisions must involve the WHOLE of man--mind, will and emotions. Any missing piece will create a vacant decision over time. That's what so many decisions for the Lord don't last. All three parts of man must be present in a spiritual decision. Now, the "hot button" issue you have in your post in the worldliness issue. Yes, we must be SEPARATE from the world (II Cor 6:14-7:1 and John 2:15-17), but we are still IN the world as Jesus mentions to the heavenly Father in John 17. The best approach I have found is to prayerfully pray/pursue the teachings of Romans 14. What you do as a Christian must not cause doubt for you. (Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.) Each Christian as an individual in the priesthood of believers must form his/her core belief and then practice it in faith. There must be absolute peace that he/she can fulfill Colossians 3:17 in the sense of being able to do anything/everything IN JESUS NAME with absolute peace in the heart. Brother, I hope this helps. I have only scratched the surface. I'm sure I will have many other opportunities to help along the way in BB. Keep in touch (as well as you other "posters"..)

 

[Ransom]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jeronimo:
Excuse me, but Wal-Mart and K-Mart sell CCM. I have seen it there.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, then, your experience is different from mine. Around here, even in a full-blown record store, apart from those artists with some crossover success, the only Christian music you can buy is either classical oratorio or gospel (i.e. Mahalia Jackson, Montreal Jubilation Choir, etc.). If you want Third Day or Avalon, you go to the Christian bookstore.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Doesn't the Bible say it is a shame to have long hair??? Yeah, I thought so too.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, so you admit now that the final standard is the Bible, and not how old something is?

That's good to hear. If you would be so kind as to post the Bible's guidelines for musical style, you can end this debate right here and now!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
I also want to know what your definition of worldly is. I would really appreciate this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Worldly" in this sense means, in the character of the corrupt world around us. (cf. Titus 2:12)

 

[Rockfort]

&lt; When hymns were being considered bad music, it was part of the world. Today it is not, so it isn't bad not to listen to it. &gt;

&lt; ...but Wal-Mart and K-Mart sell CCM. I have seen it there. &gt;

We seem to be getting some interesting (and *new*) theologies on this topic... that a biblical principle is applicable if 'the world' has decided that something is no longer a part of it; and that being *of the world* biblically is gauged by whether Wal-Mart and K-Mart sell it. [Does this mean shopping at Wal/K - Mart is being 'worldly' and must be scrapped?]

&lt; Bill Gaither's music is placed under the Christian Artist sections. &gt;

Now where do we go with this one? The Gaithers' music is not *old*, it is sold in WalK-Mart, it does use varied instruments, as well as acappella, and some of their songs have made their way into the hymn books [e.g., "Victory in Jesus"]alongside "Amazing Grace" and "Rock of Ages." So, do the Gaither songs qualify as "contemporary" music, which so many want to oust from corporate worship (and perhaps to destroy altogether)?

Keep in mind on this discussion that if Christians are not supposed to write songs which reflect the musical styles of their own time and culture, that is saying those 'old hymns' should not have been written. Martin Luther's "A Mighty Fortress" was taken from a popular bar room tune in his country, for example.

 

[Daniel]

I've watched this WalMart K-Mart music sales controversy throughout the day. It's really a non-issue. Each person must form a Biblical philosophy framework from which to work. K-Mart and WalMart have nothing to do with that philosophy as you well know. Let's get off that argument. It's going no where. Instead let's honestly look at the principle of God's holiness/separation from the world/God's Work being done decently and in order/a distincy sound vs. a confusing sound/etc. If we honestly pursue these topics we'll be going somewhere. Let's try....

 

[Ransom]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rockfort:
We seem to be getting some interesting (and *new*) theologies on this topic... that a biblical principle is applicable if 'the world' has decided that something is no longer a part of it; and that being *of the world* biblically is gauged by whether Wal-Mart and K-Mart sell it. [Does this mean shopping at Wal/K - Mart is being 'worldly' and must be scrapped?]
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've hit on something that I spied in that post, although I couldn't really put my finger on it until now. How does the location at which something is purchased make it "worldly" or not?

Is food more sanctified if I buy it from a Christian grocer instead of an atheist? More importantly to me personally, does this mean I'll have to stop buying imported foods from Chinese groceries [most likely run by Buddhists or Taoists]? Will I have to stop buying takeout from Chinese and Indian restaurants because it was prepared by pagans?

Wal-Mart also sells the Bible. Is the Bible "worldly" if it is widely available in regular department and bookstores?

Conversely, is pornography sanctified if the local Christian bookstore sells it?

Obviously not. The bottom line is, the world doesn't determine for us what is worldly and what is not. We determine that, by applying Biblical principles to our choices.

 

[Daniel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ransom:


You've hit on something that I spied in that post, although I couldn't really put my finger on it until now. How does the location at which something is purchased make it "worldly" or not?

Is food more sanctified if I buy it from a Christian grocer instead of an atheist? More importantly to me personally, does this mean I'll have to stop buying imported foods from Chinese groceries [most likely run by Buddhists or Taoists]? Will I have to stop buying takeout from Chinese and Indian restaurants because it was prepared by pagans?

Wal-Mart also sells the Bible. Is the Bible "worldly" if it is widely available in regular department and bookstores?

Conversely, is pornography sanctified if the local Christian bookstore sells it?

Obviously not. The bottom line is, the world doesn't determine for us what is worldly and what is not. We determine that, by applying Biblical principles to our choices.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

YOUR LAST SENTENCE NAILS IT ON THE HEAD, RANSOM! OH, I hope many read your post and particularly that last sentence!

 

[preacher]

Jer.6:16-Thus saith the Lord,Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

 

[Daniel]

Aaron may be gone for the summer, but I will try to keep the discussions going. So, to RANSOM, BLADE, ERIC B and others, please be advised. I will be taking us down a different path. Watch for a NEW TOPIC posted in Music Ministry sometime soon. Please do not divert with scientific studies, psychological jargon, etc. I DON'T GO THERE. You'll see in time. My purpose: to help focus all of us who love music to a practical, Biblical wide-angle approach to music and the music ministry of the local church. Please pray that God will bless and guide the study and discussion we will have in this special place.

[ June 08, 2001: Message edited by: Daniel ]

 

[Rockfort]

Matthew 15:1-3-- Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, "Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread." And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

Luke 9:49-5--- John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us." But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."

 

[Ransom]

The Preacher said:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Jer.6:16-Thus saith the Lord,Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jesus said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
"No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; for the patch pulls away from the garment, and the tear is made worse. Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins, or else the wineskins break, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But they put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved." (Matt. 9:16-17)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[rlvaughn]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rockfort:
Now where do we go with this one? The Gaithers' music is not *old*, it is sold in WalK-Mart, it does use varied instruments, as well as acappella, and some of their songs have made their way into the hymn books [e.g., "Victory in Jesus"]alongside "Amazing Grace" and "Rock of Ages." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some of the Gaithers' songs have probably made their way into hymn books, but the standard Victory in Jesus was written by Eugene M. Bartlett.

 

[Rockfort]

&lt; Some of the Gaithers' songs have probably made their way into hymn books, but the standard Victory in Jesus was written by Eugene M. Bartlett. &gt;

Apparently you're right. I was just trying to think of one offhand. Make that "Because He Lives," and take the rest of the post from there... Should it be used in church or not, because it is 'contemporary?'

 

[rlvaughn]

To discuss whether a song is appropriate based on it being traditional (old) or contemporary (new) is totally irrelevant. We should be careful also not to confuse the issue of "Contemporary Christian Music" (which might be considered an identifiable style) and whether or not a song is new. (see also my post under "Biblical Principles for Church Music)

 

[MagicDar]

I have to say...I'm totally impressed with the responses I'm seeing. I really thought all sayings and thoughts would be against CCM but I'm shocked to find out otherwise and also seeing some GREAT points. Music in general pleases God its what the lyrics say that can turn the tide. In a church service its not only the preaching that makes the difference but also the music program that can actually make the sermon. So....YES keep CCM in the service and supply the needs of all ages in your services with both traditional and modern.

 

[MagicDar]

There is no scripture to back up the idea that music itself is wrong, but where the wrong lies in is the lyrical content. As far as the looks of the musician is concerned, well that is strictly opinionated and not scripturally based on what a christian should "look like". Being separate from the world is actually meaning the way the world treats others in a non loving manner and not how you dress. If it were talking about the way you dress then every single person on earth would be conforming to the world.

Does CCM belong in a church? Why not? It is after all worship. As for kids looking up to the musician instead of God....well that has nothing to do with the music, that is about the kid liking the person who sings and as long as that doesn't interfere with their relationship with God it really has no relivance. Keep in mind, that alot of people hold thier KJV bible up as well as their pastors more than they do God himself so whats the difference?

Dar