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MMF - Rock Music Not Conducive to Good Health
- Thread starter Aaron
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SorryDude
Guest
DHK,
You obviously use the internet and it was definatly not created to talk and spread the word of God. Infact it was invented by the military for their purposes (i.e send messages of when and where attacks are to take place). Also there is 10x more evil things in it then good things. So by your logic if it was creatd for carnal and sinful things you should not be useing it.
[ May 29, 2002, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: SorryDude ]
You obviously use the internet and it was definatly not created to talk and spread the word of God. Infact it was invented by the military for their purposes (i.e send messages of when and where attacks are to take place). Also there is 10x more evil things in it then good things. So by your logic if it was creatd for carnal and sinful things you should not be useing it.
[ May 29, 2002, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: SorryDude ]
Originally posted by RhondaJoy:
I know. I was just backing you up.Thanks . . . I will check out the source you gave. Just as an FYI, I didn't imply that music was good or bad in and of itself. I think you and I agree.
Mike
http://www.thedoormagazine.com
Has anyone ever heard Beethoven's "Chorale Fantasy" performed live ?
It was as loud as any Grateful Dead show I ever attended. And the energy in that opera blows away any rock song. I was very excited during the conclusion, especially.
Now I don't want to take a side on this issue, people are making good points from both perspectives, I'm just saying that power, volume, emotion, violence, are not just a part of rock music.
It was as loud as any Grateful Dead show I ever attended. And the energy in that opera blows away any rock song. I was very excited during the conclusion, especially.
Now I don't want to take a side on this issue, people are making good points from both perspectives, I'm just saying that power, volume, emotion, violence, are not just a part of rock music.
You probably don't agree with everything this website says, but I find these guidelines very good and Biblical. They are from: http://www.av1611.org/cqguide.html
BIBLE GUIDELINES FOR CHRISTIAN MUSIC
1. CHRISTIAN MUSIC SHOULD PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST — NOT MAN
The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my SONG will I PRAISE him. Psalm 28:7
2. CHRISTIAN MUSIC IS FOR THE LORD — NOT FOR THE WORLD
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts TO THE LORD. Colossians 3:16
3. CHRISTIAN MUSIC IS A NEW SONG — NOT AN OLD SONG
I will sing a NEW SONG unto thee, O God: upon a psaltery and an instrument of ten strings will I sing praises unto thee. Psalm 144:9
4. CHRISTIAN MUSIC'S MESSAGE SHOULD BE CLEAR — NOT VAGUE OR DECEPTIVE
I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the UNDERSTANDING also. 1 Cor. 14:15
5. CHRISTIAN MUSIC SHOULD EMPHASIS THE MESSAGE — NOT THE MUSIC — NOR THE MUSICIAN
Sing forth the honour of his name: make his praise glorious. Psalm 66:2
6. CHRISTIAN MUSIC IS IN THE LOCAL CHURCH — NOT CONCERT HALLS, NIGHT CLUBS.
Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the CHURCH will I sing praise unto thee. Hebrew 2:12
7. CHRISTIAN MUSIC SHOULD FEED THE SPIRIT — NOT THE FLESH
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and SPIRITUAL songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. Colossians 3:16
8. CHRISTIAN MUSICIANS SHOULD BE DEDICATED TO THE LORD — NOT WORLDLY
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Ephesians 5:18-21
BIBLE GUIDELINES FOR CHRISTIAN MUSIC
1. CHRISTIAN MUSIC SHOULD PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST — NOT MAN
The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my SONG will I PRAISE him. Psalm 28:7
2. CHRISTIAN MUSIC IS FOR THE LORD — NOT FOR THE WORLD
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts TO THE LORD. Colossians 3:16
3. CHRISTIAN MUSIC IS A NEW SONG — NOT AN OLD SONG
I will sing a NEW SONG unto thee, O God: upon a psaltery and an instrument of ten strings will I sing praises unto thee. Psalm 144:9
4. CHRISTIAN MUSIC'S MESSAGE SHOULD BE CLEAR — NOT VAGUE OR DECEPTIVE
I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the UNDERSTANDING also. 1 Cor. 14:15
5. CHRISTIAN MUSIC SHOULD EMPHASIS THE MESSAGE — NOT THE MUSIC — NOR THE MUSICIAN
Sing forth the honour of his name: make his praise glorious. Psalm 66:2
6. CHRISTIAN MUSIC IS IN THE LOCAL CHURCH — NOT CONCERT HALLS, NIGHT CLUBS.
Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the CHURCH will I sing praise unto thee. Hebrew 2:12
7. CHRISTIAN MUSIC SHOULD FEED THE SPIRIT — NOT THE FLESH
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and SPIRITUAL songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. Colossians 3:16
8. CHRISTIAN MUSICIANS SHOULD BE DEDICATED TO THE LORD — NOT WORLDLY
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Ephesians 5:18-21
ChristianCynic
<img src=/cc2.jpg>
Those 'prooftexts' are just like Jehovah's Witnesses' literature; making a statement then referring to a verse which only vaguely, if at all, has any relation to the claim being made.
1. CHRISTIAN MUSIC SHOULD PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST — NOT MAN
Ain't there just a whole heap of songs with such lines "I will worship me", "Lord, I am more precious than silver", and "I-- am an awesome man"?
2. CHRISTIAN MUSIC IS FOR THE LORD — NOT FOR THE WORLD
Then among the songs that need to be scrapped are "O Tell the World That I'm a Christian", "Are You Washed in the Blood?", and "Marching to Zion." These examples, by their titles and lyrics, are addressing 'the world' and not the Lord.
3. CHRISTIAN MUSIC IS A NEW SONG — NOT AN OLD SONG
Sing it the first time, it's new; the second time it's old? Or does this mean "Sing Your Praise to the Lord" is superior to [newer than] "To God Be the Glory"? or that "Awesome God" is new enough to be sung, but "The Old Rugged Cross" isn't?
4. CHRISTIAN MUSIC'S MESSAGE SHOULD BE CLEAR — NOT VAGUE OR DECEPTIVE
We must have a lot of 2000-year-old Christians then, as so many congregations clearlysing "At the cross where I first saw the light." And referring to that clear song, how does a burden "roll away?" Incidentally, if Christian music is "for the Lord; not for the world" (#2), why can't it be "vague?" There is no question whatsoever that God knows exactly what we mean when we speak or sing. It's "the world" that requires clarity, but the music is not for the world, right?
5. CHRISTIAN MUSIC SHOULD EMPHASIS THE MESSAGE — NOT THE MUSIC — NOR THE MUSICIAN
Man, the Bible must have been wrong to credit David with all those Psalms! And we need to get rid of those wordless interludes and 'prelude' and 'postlude' and offertory music-- they have no message to emphasize, being wordless, but can only emphasize the musician and the music.
6. CHRISTIAN MUSIC IS IN THE LOCAL CHURCH — NOT CONCERT HALLS, NIGHT CLUBS.
Or is it in the 'upper room' where Jesus and His disciples sang a song after supper? How about a comprehensive list of all the places where God commands us to not sing praises to Him?
7. CHRISTIAN MUSIC SHOULD FEED THE SPIRIT — NOT THE FLESH
Then all songs should be the exact same melody-- otherwise, people will be inclined to compare them, and regard one as more pleasing or appealing than another.
8. CHRISTIAN MUSICIANS SHOULD BE DEDICATED TO THE LORD — NOT WORLDLY
What does this mean? If they ever stole a piece of gum as a kid, they are disqualified? If they make any money from their efforts-- like pastors and music directors-- their motives can only be 'worldly'? If they innocently saw a beautiful woman bathing, then committed adultery with her, every song they wrote should be destroyed?
[ May 30, 2002, 04:07 AM: Message edited by: ChristianCynic ]
1. CHRISTIAN MUSIC SHOULD PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST — NOT MAN
Ain't there just a whole heap of songs with such lines "I will worship me", "Lord, I am more precious than silver", and "I-- am an awesome man"?
2. CHRISTIAN MUSIC IS FOR THE LORD — NOT FOR THE WORLD
Then among the songs that need to be scrapped are "O Tell the World That I'm a Christian", "Are You Washed in the Blood?", and "Marching to Zion." These examples, by their titles and lyrics, are addressing 'the world' and not the Lord.
3. CHRISTIAN MUSIC IS A NEW SONG — NOT AN OLD SONG
Sing it the first time, it's new; the second time it's old? Or does this mean "Sing Your Praise to the Lord" is superior to [newer than] "To God Be the Glory"? or that "Awesome God" is new enough to be sung, but "The Old Rugged Cross" isn't?
4. CHRISTIAN MUSIC'S MESSAGE SHOULD BE CLEAR — NOT VAGUE OR DECEPTIVE
We must have a lot of 2000-year-old Christians then, as so many congregations clearlysing "At the cross where I first saw the light." And referring to that clear song, how does a burden "roll away?" Incidentally, if Christian music is "for the Lord; not for the world" (#2), why can't it be "vague?" There is no question whatsoever that God knows exactly what we mean when we speak or sing. It's "the world" that requires clarity, but the music is not for the world, right?
5. CHRISTIAN MUSIC SHOULD EMPHASIS THE MESSAGE — NOT THE MUSIC — NOR THE MUSICIAN
Man, the Bible must have been wrong to credit David with all those Psalms! And we need to get rid of those wordless interludes and 'prelude' and 'postlude' and offertory music-- they have no message to emphasize, being wordless, but can only emphasize the musician and the music.
6. CHRISTIAN MUSIC IS IN THE LOCAL CHURCH — NOT CONCERT HALLS, NIGHT CLUBS.
Or is it in the 'upper room' where Jesus and His disciples sang a song after supper? How about a comprehensive list of all the places where God commands us to not sing praises to Him?
7. CHRISTIAN MUSIC SHOULD FEED THE SPIRIT — NOT THE FLESH
Then all songs should be the exact same melody-- otherwise, people will be inclined to compare them, and regard one as more pleasing or appealing than another.
8. CHRISTIAN MUSICIANS SHOULD BE DEDICATED TO THE LORD — NOT WORLDLY
What does this mean? If they ever stole a piece of gum as a kid, they are disqualified? If they make any money from their efforts-- like pastors and music directors-- their motives can only be 'worldly'? If they innocently saw a beautiful woman bathing, then committed adultery with her, every song they wrote should be destroyed?
[ May 30, 2002, 04:07 AM: Message edited by: ChristianCynic ]
My problem with av1611 is that they spread urban myths as though they were facts and never once bother to learn the truth about the artists they spread rumors about.
Among the three dumbest are that the cover art for the "Hotel Califoria" album was shot at Anton LeVey's "Church of Satan" and that, not only are the people in the background members of the church of Satan, the band is, as well.
It was actually shot at the old Beverly Hills Hilton hotel.
LeVay denies knowing them except for a brief meeting at a party once and lead singer Don Henley once said in response to the rumor, "I was raised a good Baptist boy. I may not be a Baptist anymore, but I'm sure not a Satanist."
The group's founder, Glenn Frey goes on to explain that they were never Satanists or part of Anton LeVey's church and that they never encouraged the rumors but that they let them go on because they felt they were good publicity.
av1611 also describes Ozzy Osbourne as being a Satanist which he and his wife strongly deny.
"Ozzy and I have no religious beliefs, Satanic or otherwise", explained Sharon Osbourne in an interview with Circus magazine in 1995. However, since that interview, she has expressed an interest in Budhism.
They also report that Jimmy Page and Robert Plant are Satanists, which Page has repeatedly denied, although he does collect memorabilia related to spiritist, Alistair Crowley and which Plant calls "********".
They also take artists and their songs out of context in order to make it appear that they're saying somethings other than what they are.
They claim that Steve Taylor's, song "This Disco (Used to be a Cute Cathedral)" mocks Christians who try to live a sanctified lifestyle, yet even the most cursory examination of the lyrics shows that the song is about hat happens to the church when she tries to please man rather than God.
Isn't it just a bit hypocritical on their part to condemn CCM artists for covering mainstream artists' songs, which in some cases actually endorse Biblical themes while some other songs they condemn are morally neutral and don't express any sort of moral viewpoint, good or bad (my personal favorite example is their calling the Joni Mitchell song, "Big Yellow Taxi", "goddess worship") and then turn around and quote non-Christians in order to make their case!
I'm not sure I understand the logic of quoting mainstream atrists in order to disprove that CCM is bad.
If they can't get their facts straight, are they really the best source of information to prove that rock music is bad?
I haven't read Steve Miler's book mentioned in the above link to av1611, and while what they say about it may be true, I think it's the height of hypocrisy on the part of av1611 to berate the book for being "a looney tune attempt to justify their lust for fleshly rock and roll...which is not a debate by Miller but a book of side stepping, ignoring truths, half truths, looneytune logic correcting and changing the word of God to justify his love for rock and roll" when the very same thing could be said about their use of urban myths, bad journalism and outright deception, scripture twisting, and general lack of knowledge of the subject they're speaking on in order to justify their dislike of rock and roll.
Mike
[ May 30, 2002, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]
Among the three dumbest are that the cover art for the "Hotel Califoria" album was shot at Anton LeVey's "Church of Satan" and that, not only are the people in the background members of the church of Satan, the band is, as well.
It was actually shot at the old Beverly Hills Hilton hotel.
LeVay denies knowing them except for a brief meeting at a party once and lead singer Don Henley once said in response to the rumor, "I was raised a good Baptist boy. I may not be a Baptist anymore, but I'm sure not a Satanist."
The group's founder, Glenn Frey goes on to explain that they were never Satanists or part of Anton LeVey's church and that they never encouraged the rumors but that they let them go on because they felt they were good publicity.
av1611 also describes Ozzy Osbourne as being a Satanist which he and his wife strongly deny.
"Ozzy and I have no religious beliefs, Satanic or otherwise", explained Sharon Osbourne in an interview with Circus magazine in 1995. However, since that interview, she has expressed an interest in Budhism.
They also report that Jimmy Page and Robert Plant are Satanists, which Page has repeatedly denied, although he does collect memorabilia related to spiritist, Alistair Crowley and which Plant calls "********".
They also take artists and their songs out of context in order to make it appear that they're saying somethings other than what they are.
They claim that Steve Taylor's, song "This Disco (Used to be a Cute Cathedral)" mocks Christians who try to live a sanctified lifestyle, yet even the most cursory examination of the lyrics shows that the song is about hat happens to the church when she tries to please man rather than God.
Isn't it just a bit hypocritical on their part to condemn CCM artists for covering mainstream artists' songs, which in some cases actually endorse Biblical themes while some other songs they condemn are morally neutral and don't express any sort of moral viewpoint, good or bad (my personal favorite example is their calling the Joni Mitchell song, "Big Yellow Taxi", "goddess worship") and then turn around and quote non-Christians in order to make their case!
I'm not sure I understand the logic of quoting mainstream atrists in order to disprove that CCM is bad.
If they can't get their facts straight, are they really the best source of information to prove that rock music is bad?
I haven't read Steve Miler's book mentioned in the above link to av1611, and while what they say about it may be true, I think it's the height of hypocrisy on the part of av1611 to berate the book for being "a looney tune attempt to justify their lust for fleshly rock and roll...which is not a debate by Miller but a book of side stepping, ignoring truths, half truths, looneytune logic correcting and changing the word of God to justify his love for rock and roll" when the very same thing could be said about their use of urban myths, bad journalism and outright deception, scripture twisting, and general lack of knowledge of the subject they're speaking on in order to justify their dislike of rock and roll.
Mike
[ May 30, 2002, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]
1. CHRISTIAN MUSIC SHOULD PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST ? NOT MAN
Ain't there just a whole heap of songs with such lines "I will worship me", "Lord, I am more precious than silver", and "I-- am an awesome man"?
---I have never heard of them. No doubt they are CCM. You only prove my point.
2. CHRISTIAN MUSIC IS FOR THE LORD ? NOT FOR THE WORLD
Then among the songs that need to be scrapped are "O Tell the World That I'm a Christian", "Are You Washed in the Blood?", and "Marching to Zion." These examples, by their titles and lyrics, are addressing 'the world' and not the Lord.
---Let's get the hymns straight first. "I'll Tell the World That I'm a Christian," and it is testifying of the grace of God in the believer that he may go and tell the world of the gospel. Admittedly, many of the hymns are evangelistic in nature, appealing just as much to the believer as much to anyone else. "Tell me the old, old story," Christians like to sing about the gospel too, and often the songs have an appeal for Christians to make sure of their own salvation. Your argument holds no weight.
3. CHRISTIAN MUSIC IS A NEW SONG ? NOT AN OLD SONG
Sing it the first time, it's new; the second time it's old? Or does this mean "Sing Your Praise to the Lord" is superior to [newer than] "To God Be the Glory"? or that "Awesome God" is new enough to be sung, but "The Old Rugged Cross" isn't?
---Again your logic is flawed. You need to go back to school.
Rev.5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
---The new song was the song of the redeemed. When one comes to Christ, "Old things are passed away, all things are become new." When I got saved, my language changed, the places that I attended changed, my way of life (lifestyle) changed, and the music that I listened to changed. In as much as I didn't use foul language anymore, didn't go to dances where there was alcohol and drugs, and get into that culture, I also changed listening to the kind of music that I was so used to. God put a new song into my heart. A song of redemption. I used to hum some of the hymns at work shortly after I was saved. Co-workers thought I was crazy. There was a change in my life. God had put a new song in my life.
4. CHRISTIAN MUSIC'S MESSAGE SHOULD BE CLEAR ? NOT VAGUE OR DECEPTIVE
We must have a lot of 2000-year-old Christians then, as so many congregations clearlysing "At the cross where I first saw the light." And referring to that clear song, how does a burden "roll away?" Incidentally, if Christian music is "for the Lord; not for the world" (#2), why can't it be "vague?" There is no question whatsoever that God knows exactly what we mean when we speak or sing. It's "the world" that requires clarity, but the music is not for the world, right?
---Music is specifically for the Christian, and for worshiping the Lord. It was for individual worship of the Christian, and collective worship of the Christian. The same held true for the nation of Israel. I don't deny that some of the hymns of the faith need improving on, both in clarity and even theologically. We had a thread on that. People ought to realize what they are singing about. For example, "Joy to the World," is not about the birth of Christ, "a Christmas song," it is about the Second Coming and the Millennial Kingdom. However, much of the music that passes for CCM today, as I have pointed out in previous threads could pass for Hinduism, or Islam, or even Buddhism. Their description of "god" and their praise of him is that vague! Often in our churches there are visitors.
5. CHRISTIAN MUSIC SHOULD EMPHASIS THE MESSAGE ? NOT THE MUSIC ? NOR THE MUSICIAN
Man, the Bible must have been wrong to credit David with all those Psalms! And we need to get rid of those wordless interludes and 'prelude' and 'postlude' and offertory music-- they have no message to emphasize, being wordless, but can only emphasize the musician and the music.
---Yup, you definitely need to go back to school. David did write a good portion of those Psalms, and it was the MESSAGE that was emphasized, not the music. To be sure he had his harp, and other instruments are mentioned, but always the message was foremost in their music.
Concerning offertories, I don't know what you play in your church, but we play some Godly hymn so that all the congregation will know the words, even if it is instrumental. Glorify God in your music, not the musician.
6. CHRISTIAN MUSIC IS IN THE LOCAL CHURCH ? NOT CONCERT HALLS, NIGHT CLUBS.
Or is it in the 'upper room' where Jesus and His disciples sang a song after supper? How about a comprehensive list of all the places where God commands us to not sing praises to Him?
---Go back to school; basic discipleship training school. Music is for Christian worship. In the New Testament if it is not for private worship, it is for the local church. Show me where it is for any other place. The Lord's Supper was just being instituted at that time, and is now an ordinance that is specifically given to the local church. It is the church that closes the Lord's Supper with a hymn. Get your theology straight.
7. CHRISTIAN MUSIC SHOULD FEED THE SPIRIT ? NOT THE FLESH
Then all songs should be the exact same melody-- otherwise, people will be inclined to compare them, and regard one as more pleasing or appealing than another.
---That's a baseless conclusion, based on what?? There were definite styles of music that were spiritual and definite styles of music that were carnal, even in the Bible. What style of music was used that so excited the Israelites to dance naked around a golden calf in the Book of Exodus?
8. CHRISTIAN MUSICIANS SHOULD BE DEDICATED TO THE LORD ? NOT WORLDLY
What does this mean? If they ever stole a piece of gum as a kid, they are disqualified? If they make any money from their efforts-- like pastors and music directors-- their motives can only be 'worldly'? If they innocently saw a beautiful woman bathing, then committed adultery with her, every song they wrote should be destroyed?
---"For Those Tears I Died," written by Marsha Stevens, seems on the surface to be a good conservative song, until one looks a little deeper at the content of the song. Then look at the composer. She is openly gay, and promotes lesbian music. Do you? Do you buy her music, and thus support her cause?
---Am I supporting an entertainment industry, or people who are honestly trying to serve God with their talents and abilities? Are they using their abilities to mimic the world, or to glorify God?
1Cor.10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
DHK
quote, orginally posted by DHK
"Everything CCM puts out can be considered a spiritual song." That's a mouthful. Almost everything that is CCM is described from a Biblical point of view as carnal, fleshly--not spiritual at all. Both in message and in music CCM fails. Much of it fails to exalt the name of Christ, and is even somewhat blasphemous. Much of it is vague in its message as if it could be describing any god. I am speaking in general terms, not speaking of all of CCM, but of much of it. Remember, you said "EVERYTHING" CCM puts out is spiritual. Most of the music itself is what the Bible describes as being "not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish" (James 3:15).
CCM is cheap imitation of the world's music. The Christian envies the world and says that's what I want too. So instead of honoring God with Godly music and a Godly message, it takes its appeal to the world, copies the world, and tries to blend in with the world as much as possible.
You say that CCM is a "cheap imitation of the world's music" I cannot agree with that. I do not believe that anything done by a christian for God can be cheap, because it has God in it. If God is in CCM, how is it cheap? Second, you say that CCM does not honour God with either Godly music or a Godly message. You are mostly bashing the style of music. Luther used drinking songs, simply changed the lyrics. We are taking one of Satan's weapon's and destruction, (rock music) and making it a TOOL OF GOD! Christian rock musicians are doing God's work, it is their calling! And I know for a fact that most Christian musicians have a very biblical base to their music. A lot take their lyrics straight from the Bible! How can you argue against that?? MUSIC IS NOT WORLDLY IF IT IS CREATED TO PRAISE GOD! I challenge you to look at a few CCM musicians, look at their lyrics really closely, and get back to me when you find one that is blasphemous. (My point isn't that there aren't any, but that they are incredibly few and far between)You also say that much of it does not exalt Christ's name. I must disagree here. "Give thanks unto the Lord/Join in heaven's resounding praise/Sing, shout and dance before Him/ celebrate with songs of praise" (Sing to the Lord, by Skillet) Matt Redman uses bible verses in almost all of his songs. For example, 'let everything that has breath praise the Lord', is one of Redman's songs, as well as Psalm 150:6. Sonic Flood and Skillet frequently quote the bible at their concerts. Hokus Pick's song, 'Faith,Hope and Love' is taken from 1Corinthians 13. Jars of Clay's popular song, 'Flood' is based on the story of Noah, from a drowning man's perspective. If you look into CCM, most of them are doctrinally correct, most of them DO exalt Christ's name. Last of all, I would like to know where in the Bible CCM is described as being "not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish" (James 3:15). That quote is not referring to music! I do not care if you like or listen to CCM, but at least realise that it is from God, and that it is being used to reach the lost for God.
Mat.28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
It does not say anywhere to use music to reach the world, but it also says nothing against using music to reach the world!
"Everything CCM puts out can be considered a spiritual song." That's a mouthful. Almost everything that is CCM is described from a Biblical point of view as carnal, fleshly--not spiritual at all. Both in message and in music CCM fails. Much of it fails to exalt the name of Christ, and is even somewhat blasphemous. Much of it is vague in its message as if it could be describing any god. I am speaking in general terms, not speaking of all of CCM, but of much of it. Remember, you said "EVERYTHING" CCM puts out is spiritual. Most of the music itself is what the Bible describes as being "not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish" (James 3:15).
CCM is cheap imitation of the world's music. The Christian envies the world and says that's what I want too. So instead of honoring God with Godly music and a Godly message, it takes its appeal to the world, copies the world, and tries to blend in with the world as much as possible.
You say that CCM is a "cheap imitation of the world's music" I cannot agree with that. I do not believe that anything done by a christian for God can be cheap, because it has God in it. If God is in CCM, how is it cheap? Second, you say that CCM does not honour God with either Godly music or a Godly message. You are mostly bashing the style of music. Luther used drinking songs, simply changed the lyrics. We are taking one of Satan's weapon's and destruction, (rock music) and making it a TOOL OF GOD! Christian rock musicians are doing God's work, it is their calling! And I know for a fact that most Christian musicians have a very biblical base to their music. A lot take their lyrics straight from the Bible! How can you argue against that?? MUSIC IS NOT WORLDLY IF IT IS CREATED TO PRAISE GOD! I challenge you to look at a few CCM musicians, look at their lyrics really closely, and get back to me when you find one that is blasphemous. (My point isn't that there aren't any, but that they are incredibly few and far between)You also say that much of it does not exalt Christ's name. I must disagree here. "Give thanks unto the Lord/Join in heaven's resounding praise/Sing, shout and dance before Him/ celebrate with songs of praise" (Sing to the Lord, by Skillet) Matt Redman uses bible verses in almost all of his songs. For example, 'let everything that has breath praise the Lord', is one of Redman's songs, as well as Psalm 150:6. Sonic Flood and Skillet frequently quote the bible at their concerts. Hokus Pick's song, 'Faith,Hope and Love' is taken from 1Corinthians 13. Jars of Clay's popular song, 'Flood' is based on the story of Noah, from a drowning man's perspective. If you look into CCM, most of them are doctrinally correct, most of them DO exalt Christ's name. Last of all, I would like to know where in the Bible CCM is described as being "not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish" (James 3:15). That quote is not referring to music! I do not care if you like or listen to CCM, but at least realise that it is from God, and that it is being used to reach the lost for God.
Mat.28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
It does not say anywhere to use music to reach the world, but it also says nothing against using music to reach the world!
In that case, some "high society" person who took pride in his classical (which is seen by many as a hallmark of "superior culture"), yet scoffed at the idea of God as much as any satanic rocker, should then give up classical, and not simply add christian words to it.
This is where the scriptures on weak conscience and offense come in. They go both ways, as both styles can be associated with sinful unsaved culture, and thus "the flesh".
In a sketch before the song "Are You the One?" Carman portrays the Lord Jesus Christ and John the Baptist as two dim-witted cousins, scratching their heads and pondering their respective "ministries." Although the Scriptures tell us very little about the childhood days of either Jesus or John, Carman sets out on a make-believe journey to show how they may have acted.
Jesus is portrayed as a proud young man with His "Messiah-type walk" which Carman demonstrates to his delighted, cheering audience. Carman then goes on to describe the beginning of John's ministry;
" ... They grow up and go their separate ways, and one day John comes back on the scene dressed in camel hair, eating bugs. You know, little locusts, grasshoppers, y'know, cockroaches ..." (Carman does a little dance step here, snickering, 'La Cucarocha, La Cucarocha...")
Carman continues this tasteless mockery of a man the Lord had great respect for (Matthew 11:11) by portraying John as a power hungry fool who wanted to build a big church and name it after himself -- Baptist Church!
According to Carman, when John's disciples were seeking confirmation that Jesus is indeed the Christ, they said, " ... You know. your CRAZY COUSIN, John the jailbird, you know that eats bugs and stuff".
No matter how sincere Carman is in his lyrics and in what he says he wants to do for the Lord, no excuse can be given for the above-mentioned sketch. Laughing at ourselves and enjoying one another's fellowship is one thing, but to poke fun at the very God of Glory and John the Baptist to get your laughs is nothing short of BLASPHEMY!!
Carman ends the video by reducing the wonderful act of redemption of all the saints of God to the level of a boxing match. With "Rocky" type music playing in the background and God the Father as referee, Jesus and Satan battle it out to see who will be the "Champion". Such a charade only serves to belittle the sufferings of the Lord Jesus on the Cross to save His people from their sins.
Carman takes this belittlement of Christ's wonderful plan of Salvation one stage further in the video "Revival in the Land". In the song "Resurrection Rap" Jesus is portrayed as a gang leader who is "crucified" on a pole and then stabbed with a knife. His lifeless body is then thrown into a rubbish skip which blazes with light as Jesus is resurrected three days later!
It to sad that someone who writes the lyrics to such songs as "Oh The Blood of Jesus" or "No Way, We Are Not Ashamed" would put his Lord and Saviour to an open shame by portraying Him in such an irreverent manner, Though he has been challenged about these matters, Carman has remained unrepentant of his actions and has decided to continue on his perilous way (II Tim 3:1,2 & 9).
Webster's Dictionary defines BLASPHEMY as: 1. the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God. 3. irreverence toward something considered sacred. If Carman's mocking and poking fun at the Lord Jesus Christ is not "lack of reverence for God" --- NOTHING IS!
http://www.freedomministries.org.uk/ccm/carman1.shtml
Carmen has Godly music?? Give me a break!
Do you still want more examples?
DHK
S
SorryDude
Guest
"True king descendant, master to the apprentice
Pleased to release and reveal in me His presence
Forever blessed, I believe if Jah said it
The word of life came alive in the scriptures ?C I read it
All hail, we prevail, the Tribes of Israel, flow through ya
We pursue the conquering lion of the Tribe of Judah
Don't let 'em fool ya, before this, the foolish get rushed
So don't slop, you never knew us"
What do you peple think of these lyrics?
Pleased to release and reveal in me His presence
Forever blessed, I believe if Jah said it
The word of life came alive in the scriptures ?C I read it
All hail, we prevail, the Tribes of Israel, flow through ya
We pursue the conquering lion of the Tribe of Judah
Don't let 'em fool ya, before this, the foolish get rushed
So don't slop, you never knew us"
What do you peple think of these lyrics?
ChristianCynic
<img src=/cc2.jpg>
Ain't there just a whole heap of songs with such lines "I will worship me", "Lord, I am more precious than silver", and "I-- am an awesome man"? --I have never heard of them. No doubt they are CCM. You only prove my point.
You never heard of them because they ain't there, bud. What is there instead is: "I will worship You", "Lord You are more precious than silver," and "Our God is an awesome God!"
--Let's get the hymns straight first. "I'll Tell the World That I'm a Christian," and it is testifying of the grace of God in the believer that he may go and tell the world of the gospel. Admittedly, many of the hymns are evangelistic in nature, appealing just as much to the believer as much to anyone else. "Tell me the old, old story," Christians like to sing about the gospel too, and often the songs have an appeal for Christians to make sure of their own salvation. Your argument holds no weight.
Only in space where people are weightless-- for these songs do address people, not God, and your contention was that music is "not for the world, but for the Lord." These words are addressed to people.
When one comes to Christ, "Old things are passed away, all things are become new." When I got saved, my language changed, the places that I attended changed, my way of life (lifestyle) changed, and the music that I listened to changed.
What language did you speak before? Did you change employers or schools you attended? Did you move from rural to urban, or vice versa? For all things to become new requires a lot of finagling.
In as much as I didn't use foul language anymore, didn't go to dances where there was alcohol and drugs, and get into that culture, I also changed listening to the kind of music that I was so used to. God put a new song into my heart. A song of redemption.
What were the words to that new song-- which should now be old?
Co-workers thought I was crazy
No comment here.
I used to hum some of the hymns at work shortly after I was saved.... Music is specifically for the Christian, and for worshiping the Lord.
Then why were you humming you song where your coworkers could hear?
I don't deny that some of the hymns of the faith need improving on, both in clarity and even theologically.
Ain't that a noble admission?
However, much of the music that passes for CCM today, as I have pointed out in previous threads could pass for Hinduism, or Islam, or even Buddhism. Their description of "god" and their praise of him is that vague!
"Jesus Christ-- Praise Your name!", "When God took His people to the Promised Land..", "He spoke into the darkness and created the light"-- ain't these well-known 'CCM' lyrics vague in identifying what god they refer to?
David did write a good portion of those Psalms, and it was the MESSAGE that was emphasized, not the music.
And don't we sing "Rich Mullins was an awesome man!" instead of "Our God is an awesome God!"
Concerning offertories, I don't know what you play in your church, but we play some Godly hymn so that all the congregation will know the words, even if it is instrumental.
I don't play anything in church. Just how do you know "all the congregation"-- every person present, young or old-- knows all the words to the song being played?
Music is for Christian worship. In the New Testament if it is not for private worship, it is for the local church. Show me where it is for any other place.
It is for the church, and the church is an assembly, not a place. "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst" [Matt 28:20].
There were definite styles of music that were spiritual and definite styles of music that were carnal, even in the Bible.
And where are they identified in any technichal way?
What style of music was used that so excited the Israelites to dance naked around a golden calf in the Book of Exodus?
CCM? Lawrence Welk -style? Bluegrass? I see no identification of 'style' here either.
"For Those Tears I Died," written by Marsha Stevens, seems on the surface to be a good conservative song, until one looks a little deeper at the content of the song. Then look at the composer. She is openly gay, and promotes lesbian music. Do you? Do you buy her music, and thus support her cause?
I hadn't even heard of her. I wonder how you know so much about her and her music.
Am I supporting an entertainment industry, or people who are honestly trying to serve God with their talents and abilities? Are they using their abilities to mimic the world, or to glorify God?
If you are asking yourself these questions, you have to answer. If you go to a church which pays the pastor and music director because they are doing something you want them to do for you [that's entertainment], the buyer/seller relationship is there. No matter if you say it's "for the Lord," the fact is the Lord didn't hire them and doesn't sign their checks and He's not the one who's going to bump them off if they do something dastardly. It is not different with musicians or writers.
1Cor.10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Do you notice the 'worldly' activities here?... Eating, drinking, and whatsoever we do. They can be done to the glory of God, although they are worldly, or there would be no such command.
You never heard of them because they ain't there, bud. What is there instead is: "I will worship You", "Lord You are more precious than silver," and "Our God is an awesome God!"
--Let's get the hymns straight first. "I'll Tell the World That I'm a Christian," and it is testifying of the grace of God in the believer that he may go and tell the world of the gospel. Admittedly, many of the hymns are evangelistic in nature, appealing just as much to the believer as much to anyone else. "Tell me the old, old story," Christians like to sing about the gospel too, and often the songs have an appeal for Christians to make sure of their own salvation. Your argument holds no weight.
Only in space where people are weightless-- for these songs do address people, not God, and your contention was that music is "not for the world, but for the Lord." These words are addressed to people.
When one comes to Christ, "Old things are passed away, all things are become new." When I got saved, my language changed, the places that I attended changed, my way of life (lifestyle) changed, and the music that I listened to changed.
What language did you speak before? Did you change employers or schools you attended? Did you move from rural to urban, or vice versa? For all things to become new requires a lot of finagling.
In as much as I didn't use foul language anymore, didn't go to dances where there was alcohol and drugs, and get into that culture, I also changed listening to the kind of music that I was so used to. God put a new song into my heart. A song of redemption.
What were the words to that new song-- which should now be old?
Co-workers thought I was crazy
No comment here.
I used to hum some of the hymns at work shortly after I was saved.... Music is specifically for the Christian, and for worshiping the Lord.
Then why were you humming you song where your coworkers could hear?
I don't deny that some of the hymns of the faith need improving on, both in clarity and even theologically.
Ain't that a noble admission?
However, much of the music that passes for CCM today, as I have pointed out in previous threads could pass for Hinduism, or Islam, or even Buddhism. Their description of "god" and their praise of him is that vague!
"Jesus Christ-- Praise Your name!", "When God took His people to the Promised Land..", "He spoke into the darkness and created the light"-- ain't these well-known 'CCM' lyrics vague in identifying what god they refer to?
David did write a good portion of those Psalms, and it was the MESSAGE that was emphasized, not the music.
And don't we sing "Rich Mullins was an awesome man!" instead of "Our God is an awesome God!"
Concerning offertories, I don't know what you play in your church, but we play some Godly hymn so that all the congregation will know the words, even if it is instrumental.
I don't play anything in church. Just how do you know "all the congregation"-- every person present, young or old-- knows all the words to the song being played?
Music is for Christian worship. In the New Testament if it is not for private worship, it is for the local church. Show me where it is for any other place.
It is for the church, and the church is an assembly, not a place. "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst" [Matt 28:20].
There were definite styles of music that were spiritual and definite styles of music that were carnal, even in the Bible.
And where are they identified in any technichal way?
What style of music was used that so excited the Israelites to dance naked around a golden calf in the Book of Exodus?
CCM? Lawrence Welk -style? Bluegrass? I see no identification of 'style' here either.
"For Those Tears I Died," written by Marsha Stevens, seems on the surface to be a good conservative song, until one looks a little deeper at the content of the song. Then look at the composer. She is openly gay, and promotes lesbian music. Do you? Do you buy her music, and thus support her cause?
I hadn't even heard of her. I wonder how you know so much about her and her music.
Am I supporting an entertainment industry, or people who are honestly trying to serve God with their talents and abilities? Are they using their abilities to mimic the world, or to glorify God?
If you are asking yourself these questions, you have to answer. If you go to a church which pays the pastor and music director because they are doing something you want them to do for you [that's entertainment], the buyer/seller relationship is there. No matter if you say it's "for the Lord," the fact is the Lord didn't hire them and doesn't sign their checks and He's not the one who's going to bump them off if they do something dastardly. It is not different with musicians or writers.
1Cor.10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Do you notice the 'worldly' activities here?... Eating, drinking, and whatsoever we do. They can be done to the glory of God, although they are worldly, or there would be no such command.
He certainly has put up a lot of stuff to think about.
Nice Job, Cristian Cynic ( if that IS your real name....)
Nice Job, Cristian Cynic ( if that IS your real name....)
Christian Cynic:
Surely you can find better answers, preferably Scriptural answers, rather than demeaning answers. I suppose it shows that you have not much or any truth to stand upon.
"Only in space where people are weightless-- for these songs do address people, not God, and your contention was that music is "not for the world, but for the Lord." These words are addressed to people."
---These songs ("Tell me the Old Old Story," "I'll Tell the World that I'm A Christian," etc.) are not addressed to the world. Where in the "world" do you get that idea from? I have already stressed to you that music had two purposes: one for private worship, and the for the collective worship of the church. So if the music is for the collective uplifting and edification of the church, how do you say it is for the world, unless the only kind of church you know is of the world?
"What language did you speak before? Did you change employers or schools you attended? Did you move from rural to urban, or vice versa? For all things to become new requires a lot of finagling."
---Your sarcasm is so kind.
2Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
---If you have never been born again, you have never experienced what this verse is talking about so you can only make fun of and mock the Word of God. It is not I, but the Word that says "all things are become new." I was both quoting Scripture and my experience. My experience is Biblically- based. But if you don't believe the Bible I cannot help you. Your argument is with God; not with me.
"What were the words to that new song-- which should now be old?"
--I feel sorry for you if you can't tell. I will tell you once again.
Rev.5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
---When you become redeemed you will know what a "new song" is.
I am not going to bother to answer the rest of your comments. Look to the Word my friend, not the world.
DHK
Surely you can find better answers, preferably Scriptural answers, rather than demeaning answers. I suppose it shows that you have not much or any truth to stand upon.
"Only in space where people are weightless-- for these songs do address people, not God, and your contention was that music is "not for the world, but for the Lord." These words are addressed to people."
---These songs ("Tell me the Old Old Story," "I'll Tell the World that I'm A Christian," etc.) are not addressed to the world. Where in the "world" do you get that idea from? I have already stressed to you that music had two purposes: one for private worship, and the for the collective worship of the church. So if the music is for the collective uplifting and edification of the church, how do you say it is for the world, unless the only kind of church you know is of the world?
"What language did you speak before? Did you change employers or schools you attended? Did you move from rural to urban, or vice versa? For all things to become new requires a lot of finagling."
---Your sarcasm is so kind.
2Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
---If you have never been born again, you have never experienced what this verse is talking about so you can only make fun of and mock the Word of God. It is not I, but the Word that says "all things are become new." I was both quoting Scripture and my experience. My experience is Biblically- based. But if you don't believe the Bible I cannot help you. Your argument is with God; not with me.
"What were the words to that new song-- which should now be old?"
--I feel sorry for you if you can't tell. I will tell you once again.
Rev.5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
---When you become redeemed you will know what a "new song" is.
I am not going to bother to answer the rest of your comments. Look to the Word my friend, not the world.
DHK