MMF - Rock Music Not Conducive to Good Health

[RhondaJoy]

Originally posted by DHK:
Christian Cynic:
Surely you can find better answers, preferably Scriptural answers, rather than demeaning answers.

Well now, ain't that the pot calling the kettle black? I just read DHK telling Christian Cynic to "go back to school," "get educated," etc., etc. . . and I thought Christian Cynic was gracious in his reply.

If you dish it out, get your plate ready, 'cause you can bet it's gonna be comin' back your way!

 

[Johnv]

Boy!!

Since I tie my shoes the same way that Hindus and Muslims do, does that mean tying my shoe is not pleasing to God?

So if I sing a song that praises God, and could be also sung by a muslim or buddhist in accordance with their beliefs, now all of a sudden, my music is in some way not not appropriate for christian ears. What balderdash.

It's a pretty bad thing when an artist comes out with a CCM selection, and then gets blasted because it's "not Christian enough". That attitude, if you ask me, is Satan working.

This notion that CCM and artists must pass some kind of fundamentalist litmus test is rediculous and ungodly. Not to mention self-righteous, indignant, and a violation of Matt 7:1.

I hope I wasn't too vague.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Johnv:
So if I sing a song that praises God, and could be also sung by a muslim or buddhist in accordance with their beliefs, now all of a sudden, my music is in some way not not appropriate for christian ears. What balderdash.

Are you a universalist? What kind of god do you serve? One that brings no offence to the Hindus, Muslims, or Buddhists? That's not the God that I serve. The God that I serve is the second person of the Triune Godhead, God manifest in the flesh, the Lord Jesus Christ who died on the cross to make an atonement for the sins of those who would believe on Him, who was buried in the grave and on the third day rose again, conquering sin and death. It is His blood that washes away sin. It is through His name that one is saved. My God is not vague. "I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day."

Do you ever wonder why hymns like:
"There is a fountain filled with blood
drawn from Emmanuel's veins
And sinners plunged beneath that flood
lose all their guilty stain.

Why aren't they popular with the world, or with other religions like the Muslims or Hindus? The world hates a "bloody religion." They hate the "blood" of Christ. There is little doctrine that is in CCM.
The gospel is offensive by nature. CCM appeals to the world; the gospel does not.
Stephen was stoned for preaching to the Jews, not for singing CCM.
DHK

 

[susanpet]

Maybe I am old fashioned, but I would rather listen to the old hymns anyday.
Before I was saved I listened to rock and country music. And most of the time I was out doing something I shouldn't. Now if I hear a certain secular song it brings up memories of my past. I can remember where I was at and what I was doing when that song played. I know the song in itself is not wrong, I just don't like to be reminded of some things I use to do.
There may be some good christian rock songs out there. I just haven't heard any.
I don't know, when you become a new man, you will act like it.

In Christ
Susan

 

[Matticus]

It is perfectly fine to like hymns and older music. There is nothing wroing with that. I also think that there is nothing wrong with the majority of CCM. Here are some especially good CCM songs you should check out, if u want to hear some: 'What can I do for You?' by Tree 63, 'Your Love O Lord' by Third Day, 'Safe With You' by Skillet and 'The Heart of Worship' by Matt Redman. I find these artists' songs to be really uplifting.

God Bless
Matt

 

[Naomi]

Susanpet:
Maybe I am old fashioned, but I would rather listen to the old hymns anyday.

Naomi:
I think you should have the liberty to listen to old hymns. I like them as well.

Susanpet:
Before I was saved I listened to rock and country music. And most of the time I was out doing something I shouldn't.

Naomi: Me too!

Susanpet:
Now if I hear a certain secular song it brings up memories of my past. I can remember where I was at and what I was doing when that song played. I know the song in itself is not wrong, I just don't like to be reminded of some things I use to do.

Naomi:
I can relate to this. Certain songs remind me of my "old-nature"

Susanpet:
There may be some good christian rock songs out there. I just haven't heard any.

Naomi: There are many songs that bring Praise to Jesus.

I don't know, when you become a new man, you will act like it.

This is true. Songs that I listen to now, have a complete different message. Instead of listening to "Everybody must get stoned", I listen to, "Everybody must get saved".
I have been washed in the Blood of the Lamb. The songs I listen to now talk about lifting up the name of Jesus. I don't agree that ALL CCM is good, or even doctrinally sound, but there is also alot that has ministered to me. I love the traditional music as well. I have no desire to listen to secular music at all. God is capable to convict us if we are listening to music that is leading us away from Him and towards the world. Music, in itself, is not the problem. The problem comes from within us. Jesus pointed this out so many times in the scriptures. Music I listen to (which is Praise Music) is not my problem. My problem is not loving my neighbor's as I should, gossiping when I should not, Judging other's which I should not, attitudes that I have at times. ( I am certain, I am the only one who struggles with this ) My trouble is what is inside, not what music I listen to.
Naomi

 

[ChristianCynic]

DHK, at this limited time, I have only one question for you to answer. Consider the modern/CCM lyrics, "It is finished and Jesus is Lord!", "My Jesus, my savior-- Lord, there is none like you", and "Jesus is the name of the Lord".

Now, consider I Corinthians 12:3 -- Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

These lyrics, among many others, very clearly say Jesus is Lord. YES or NO -- When believers sing these words, are they doing so by the Holy Spirit? [This is absolutely a binary question, so talking around it or making any conditional answer is a NO answer]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by ChristianCynic:
DHK, at this limited time, I have only one question for you to answer. Consider the modern/CCM lyrics, "It is finished and Jesus is Lord!", "My Jesus, my savior-- Lord, there is none like you", and "Jesus is the name of the Lord".

Now, consider I Corinthians 12:3 -- Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

These lyrics, among many others, very clearly say Jesus is Lord. YES or NO -- When believers sing these words, are they doing so by the Holy Spirit? [This is absolutely a binary question, so talking around it or making any conditional answer is a NO answer]

Please do not misunderstand this verse or take it out of context. Any fool or unbeliever can say that Jesus Christ is Lord without the aid of the Holy Spirit, and many do. There are many false teachers.

Mat.7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Obviously many will call Jesus Lord and will end up in the lake of fire.
So what then does 1Cor.12:3 mean?
1Cor.12 to 14 speak of spiritual gifts. In chapter 12 Paul gives a list of the gifts of the Spirit twice, and shows how they are important for the members of the church. In chapter 13 he shows that even greater than all the gifts of the spirit put together is the way of love. In chapter 14 he compares the gift of prophesy to the gift of tongues, showing that a gift of understanding is much better than a gift that has no understanding. Look at the first three verses of 1Cor.12

12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

In verse one, he says I don't want you to be ignorant about spiritual gifts. You ought to know about this. Don't be in the dark.
He reminds them of the pagan and sinful background that they were saved from in verse two. Many of them had gone after other gods, idols. They were not raised in Christian homes. Now remember he is addressing the abuse of the gifts of the spirit. When he comes to verse three, he says, "Wherefore I give you to understand that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed." Now what did he mean by that? There were some in the Corinthian church who were speaking by another spirit (not the Spirit of God), and thinking they were praising God, were actually cursing God. What were they doing? They were abusing the gift of tongues. They were speaking in tongues all right, but not by the Holy Spirit, by another spirit--a demonic spirit. They were cursing God in a language they did not know they were speaking.
Paul says the Holy Spirit does not operate this way. If one spoke in tongues by the Holy Spirit, he would be saying that Jesus Christ is Lord, but that is not what all of the Corinthians were doing. Notice immediately after this verse he lists the gifts of the Spirit.

Any one can say that Jesus Christ is Lord, and I think you know that. That is why there are so many false religions and cults in this world today. Many call him Lord, and they don't even know Him.

As far as the songs you mentioned I would like to be able to intelligently comment on them, but I cannot, because I do not know them. You did not provide enough information, like who the artist was. On the surface the words sound good, but I don't know what the whole song is that you are referring to, unless "It is finished," is?

Long ago I saw my Saviour bearing shame upon a tree.
Then my heart was touched with sorrow, For I saw He bled for me.

"It is finished," Loud He cried; O what love— for me He died.
In my stead He bled on Calvary; Once for all Christ rescued me.

Lo, the sky was veiled in darkness; Sudden trembling shook the ground
As the angry crowd was jeering, Mocking Jesus all around.

Then My Saviour called to heaven As I saw His love anew,
"O my Father, please forgive them, For they know not what they do."

Free salvation now He offers; Take His gift, O hear His plea;
On the bloody cross behold Him, Join His shout of victory.

"It is finished," Loud He cried; O what love— for me He died.
In my stead He bled on Calvary; Once for all Christ rescued me.
"It is Finished" by Ron Hamilton

This also is a contemporary song. But it does not belong to CCM.
DHK

 

[ChristianCynic]

I didn't think you had the guts to answer the question without being delkiberately vague about the words in question. Therefore you answered 'no,' that those words of praise to the Lord Jesus do not originate from the Holy
Spirit.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by superdave:
There are passages in Scripture warning about drinking, none that warn us to abstain from any specific styles of music

But that is typical of many who have to find some reason why what they don't "like" is evil

There are passages that tell us to abstain from sensuality.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Matticus:
Way back in this discussion, someone challenged CCM, and asked if any of it is either a "psalm, hymn or spiritual song" I don't know about psalms, but as for hymns, a hymn is a song of praise to God. It does not matter what style it is. Everything CCM puts out can be considered a spiritual song. I agree fully with SorryDude. One more thing: just because rock music started out as Satan's creation does not mean that we can not turn it around and make it God's. By praising God with our rock music, we take Satan's weapon and turn it against him.
Matt

Satan savors those things that be of men: sensuality and earthly-ness "earthiness". God seeks those who will worship Him in truth and in spirit. Therefore, those things that Satan savors cannot be used in the worship of God, for the carnal mind is at enmity with God, for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by ChristianCynic:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:

CCM is cheap imitation of the world's music. The Christian envies the world and says that's what I want too. So instead of honoring God with Godly music and a Godly message, it takes its appeal to the world, copies the world, and tries to blend in with the world as much as possible.

Unless no difference whatsoever can be ascertained from the 'hymns' you espouse compared to the 'psalms and hymns and spiritual songs' referred to in Ephesians and Colossians, then this hymn music "copies the world." And since these hymns were, in fact, composed centuries later than Paul's admonitions, there is no line of connection between the styles, beats, phrasing, et al. Music-- the only kinds we can play-- is worldy.</font>[/QUOTE]And that is why the early church shunned musical instruments.

However, there is a distinction to be made between those styles that entice our lusts and those that stimulate our minds.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by RhondaJoy:
The definition of "secular" music is: "things pertaining to the material world, or things not sacred."

Thank God that I can go boldly to the throne of God because I'm covered by the blood of Jesus. I am righteous by His blood.

The same holds true to the music I play for Him. When I play my keyboards for His enjoyment, it is not worldy. It is covered by the blood and He takes great enjoyment from my praises.

As long as HE enjoys it, I don't really give a fig what anyone else thinks.

And this is the sum of the pro-CCM arguments. It's all about what I'm doing and my vain ideas of what pleases God.

God is not moved by music. Man is moved by music, and whatever is done in the assembly must be done to the edification of all. And that is why if you are going to walk in love, you need to give much more that a "fig" about what others think. You need to give your life.

[ June 01, 2002, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

[Eric B]

And that is why the early church shunned musical instruments.

I'm sure people in the world had a-capella styles as well, in fact, the chants people assume were the new testament style were definitely used by pagans. (And it's new age that has become interested in it today). So still, the point stands that you cannot claim a style that is totally unconnected to the world.

However, there is a distinction to be made between those styles that entice our lusts and those that stimulate our minds.

Still, you cannot prove that contemporary styles always entice lust, and traditional styles "stimulate our minds". I find that alot of the traditional arrangements are dry and very unstimulating, compared to so-called "jazzy" stuff, and this is why I'm so against saying only traditional stuff is good, as I do not even dance or use music to promote sexual passion. Of course, pure intellectual stimulation by itself is not always good, and that is where much of the sin associated with "classical" styles lies. CCm critics say "The issue is "flesh" versus "mind" (as in the popular non-christian catch phrase of "mind over matter"; and the mind is associated with the "spirit"), but the Bible often associates our sinful minds with "the flesh", and this is contrasted to "the spirit".

It's all about what I'm doing and my vain ideas of what pleases God.
God is not moved by music. Man is moved by music, and whatever is done in the assembly must be done to the edification of all.

But the basic argument is the style that God is "pleased" by; and critics take pride that the styles they use for Him are what in fact pleases Him. If people had asked not to use contemporary styles because their flesh was tempted by it, then perhaps the CCM fans would have been more likely to listen. But what the critics did instead was to try to speak for God (when God had said no such thing), and this happened to correspond with various cultural issues which are highly suspect, so the young Christians ignored it and said "everything is OK".

[ June 02, 2002, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

 

[Matticus]

origninally posted by Aaron:
Satan savors those things that be of men: sensuality and earthly-ness "earthiness". God seeks those who will worship Him in truth and in spirit. Therefore, those things that Satan savors cannot be used in the worship of God, for the carnal mind is at enmity with God, for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

It is true that God wants us to worship him in spirit and in truth. No where does it say that any one kind of music is the only true kind of music. You say that those things that Satan savors cannot be used in the worship of God. First: Satan seeks to destroy people. Second: does CCM destroy people? NO! It builds them up. Therefore, CCM and Satan stand for totally different things! For the most part, CCM artists seek to create high-quality music with which to worship GOD. They do not worship the flesh. Also, any style of music can be considered carnal. The only music that is not carnal is that which praises God. So if CCM praises God, it is no longer carnal. Same thing for every other style of music there is.

God Bless
Matt

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Matticus:

It is true that God wants us to worship him in spirit and in truth. No where does it say that any one kind of music is the only true kind of music. You say that those things that Satan savors cannot be used in the worship of God. First: Satan seeks to destroy people. Second: does CCM destroy people? NO! It builds them up. Therefore, CCM and Satan stand for totally different things! For the most part, CCM artists seek to create high-quality music with which to worship GOD. They do not worship the flesh. Also, any style of music can be considered carnal. The only music that is not carnal is that which praises God. So if CCM praises God, it is no longer carnal. Same thing for every other style of music there is.

"First: Satan seeks to destroy people. Second: does CCM destroy people? NO! It builds them up."
--- "NO, it builds them up." Can you give evidence of this, other than your own opinion? Rock music in and of itself is destructive. It was a music that was born out of rebellion in a rebellious age. It's message is primarily one of rebellion. The lyrics to most secular rock songs are horrible. Listen to Marilyn Manson. So the CCM crowd says what great music, copies it, puts some watered-down Christian lyrics to it and calls it Christian music. I call it hellish. It does not edify people; it does destroy them, just as Satan seeks to destroy as a roaring lion seeking to devour his adversary.

"Therefore, CCM and Satan stand for totally different things!" NOT! See above.

"For the most part, CCM artists seek to create high-quality music with which to worship GOD."
Change the last part of that sentence to "with which to worship mammon."
It is an entertainment industry. The CCM industry, and that is what it is, an "industry," is one of the fastest growing industries in the country today even among secular companies. Many of the more popular artists have become enamored with wealth and fame more than with Christ.

"They (CCMers) do not worship the flesh. Also, any style of music can be considered carnal."
You really got me on this one. The rock band musician who sings some Christian words does not appeal to the flesh; however-- "any style" of music--including that of David, including the psalms, hymns and spiritual songs that Paul referred to, including the music of Solomon when he dedicated the Temple--it all can be considered carnal?? This is correct?? But rock musicians (CCMers) are not of the flesh, are not carnal? I wish I knew your Biblical and logical reasoning here.

"The only music that is not carnal is that which praises God. So if CCM praises God, it is no longer carnal."
Mark 1:23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.
--- "So if the demon praises God, it is no longer carnal?" "I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God!"
DHK

 

[Mike McK]

DHK,

Could you please provide some examples of CCM artists or songs that are guilty of the things you say they are?

Mike

 

[SorryDude]

"NO, it builds them up." Can you give evidence of this, other than your own opinion? Rock music in and of itself is destructive. "

Can you give any evidence that CCM is destructive that isnt based from your personal opinion of the style?

"; however-- "any style" of music--including that of David, including the psalms, hymns and spiritual songs that Paul referred to, including the music of Solomon when he dedicated the Temple--it all can be considered carnal??"

If some pagan or Satanist were to write about who they worship in the same style that david wrote his psalms of course that would be carnal! You are focusing on the style and not on the words.

 

[Matticus]

"They (CCMers) do not worship the flesh. Also, any style of music can be considered carnal."
You really got me on this one. The rock band musician who sings some Christian words does not appeal to the flesh; however-- "any style" of music--including that of David, including the psalms, hymns and spiritual songs that Paul referred to, including the music of Solomon when he dedicated the Temple--it all can be considered carnal?? This is correct?? But rock musicians (CCMers) are not of the flesh, are not carnal? I wish I knew your Biblical and logical reasoning here.

"The only music that is not carnal is that which praises God. So if CCM praises God, it is no longer carnal."
Mark 1:23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.
--- "So if the demon praises God, it is no longer carnal?" "I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God!"

First, I am saying that any style of music can be carnal - not that every kind is. If it is being used to praise God, it is not carnal. That goes for CCM and hymmns as well as every other style of music.

The demon in Mark 1:23 did not worship Jesus. It was in no way worshipping Christ, simply acknoledging who He is.

 

[Matticus]

The Heart of Worship by Matt Redman
When the music fades all is stripped away
and I simply come
Longing just to bring
something that's of worth
that will bless Your heart

I'll bring You more than a song
for a song in itself
is not what You've required.
You search much deeper within
through the way things appear
You're looking into my heart

I'm coming back to the heart of worship
and it's all about You, all about You Jesus
I'm sorry Lord for the thing I've made it,
when it's all about You, all about You Jesus

King of endless worth
no one could express
How much You deserve
Though I'm weak and poor,
All I have is Yours
Every single breath

What do you folks all think of those lyrics?