Moderation Now and Abstinence Later

[olegig]

It's synonomous olegig. When you strike out in that direction all you're doing is making the simple complex.

I am a bit disappointed that you did not present a simple "pregnant point" in scripture showing them synonyms.
Your license to spirualize seems to be base on a "pregnant point" so what is your license to make them synonymous based upon?

Please, give me a good reason to spend time discussing scripture with someone who does not take it as it stands; but either spiritualizes some and gives some words the meaning of other words.

 

[kyredneck]

I am a bit disappointed that you did not present a simple "pregnant point" in scripture showing them synonyms.
Your license to spirualize seems to be base on a "pregnant point" so what is your license to make them synonymous based upon?

Please, give me a good reason to spend time discussing scripture with someone who does not take it as it stands; but either spiritualizes some and gives some words the meaning of other words.

We're hijacking/derailing the thread, much of this topic was covered here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=64444
.....and you're mocking me.

 

[Marcia]

Don't get me wrong, I've absolutely nothing against eating or drinking in our glorified bodies.....

for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Ro 14:17

.....but do you all believe it's referring to actual, literal, eating and drinking? (incidentally, I believe the Kingdom is now)


I really believe it goes beyond the physical or literal; it's something that can't be tasted or touched in this physical realm. It's all spiritual.

Yes, we are talking about literal eating and drinking.

Jesus ate in his resurrected body and then there's the quote that I gave.

I do not think we are in the full revelation of the Kingdom. I guess that's another thread.

 

[olegig]

We're hijacking/derailing the thread,

In an attempt to respond to the OP I was only pointing out that in the future Kingdom of Heaven there will be those physically on earth that will eat and there will be those in their glorified bodies that may not require food thus offering an answer as to why some scriptures speak of eating while others speak of not having the need for eating.

Recognizing that God will again deal with the Jew on a physical basis in the future is the only way to leave both the eating and non-eating scriptures in tact literally; but still have meaning.

I feel this is very pertinent to the questions raised in the OP; but I do agree this thread is not the place for a dispensational vs. replacement theological discussion.

 

[HankD]

OK, in response to the O/P concerning "the eternal state" here is a metaphorical statement by God given to Abraham and his seed which points (perhaps) to a dual blessing (earthly and heavenly) for redeemed Israel:

Genesis 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;​

Sand of the sea: Fulfilled by the earthly blessing to Israel (Jacob), the millenium.
Stars of the heaven: Heavenly, the eternal state.

When studying the Scripture discernment should be exercised to rightly divide between the earthly manifestation of the kingdom of God in fulfilment of every earthly promise given to Israel ("the scripture cannot be broken") and the eternal state.

An example among a multitude:

Jesus promise to return:

Acts 1​

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.​

The fulfilment yet to happen:​

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.​

From these Scriptures (if taken literally), He left in His physical and scarred resurrected body from the Mount of Olives and He will return in like manner to the same place to gather the nations in war (Megiddo in the plain of Jezreel - Hosea), subdue them and set up His earthly kingdom (which is not of this world system - ho cosmos) out of Jerusalem which shall endure for a thousand years and every word of promise for Israel which has proceeded out of the mouth of God to them shall be fulfilled.​

In that Day God will redeem His aduterous wife (Israel)​

Hosea 1
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.​

HankD​

 

[kyredneck]

OK, in response to the O/P concerning "the eternal state" here is a metaphorical statement by God given to Abraham and his seed which points (perhaps) to a dual blessing (earthly and heavenly) for redeemed Israel:

Genesis 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;​

Sand of the sea: Fulfilled by the earthly blessing to Israel (Jacob), the millenium.
Stars of the heaven: Heavenly, the eternal state.

When studying the Scripture discernment should be exercised to rightly divide between the earthly manifestation of the kingdom of God in fulfilment of every earthly promise given to Israel ("the scripture cannot be broken") and the eternal state.

An example among a multitude:

Jesus promise to return:

Acts 1​

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.​

The fulfilment yet to happen:​

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.​

From these Scriptures (if taken literally), He left in His physical and scarred resurrected body from the Mount of Olives and He will return in like manner to the same place to gather the nations in war (Megiddo in the plain of Jezreel - Hosea), subdue them and set up His earthly kingdom (which is not of this world system - ho cosmos) out of Jerusalem which shall endure for a thousand years and every word of promise for Israel which has proceeded out of the mouth of God to them shall be fulfilled.​

In that Day God will redeem His aduterous wife (Israel)​

Hosea 1
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.​

HankD​

Hank, I'll ask the same to you that olegig asked me on another thread; when do you know when to spiritualize or literalize?

Do you take the following passages literally to mean David and the House of David?:

23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
24 And I, Jehovah, will be their God, and my servant David prince among them; I, Jehovah, have spoken it. Ezek 34

24 And my servant David shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in mine ordinances, and observe my statutes, and do them. Ezek 37

9 but they shall serve Jehovah their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. Jer 30:9

5 afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek Jehovah their God, and David their king, and shall come with fear unto Jehovah and to his goodness in the latter days. Hos 3:5

11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up its ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old; Amos 9

The elders at Jerusalem didn't literalize it:

14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,
18 Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old. Acts 15

Peter never literalized it either, see Acts 2:25-36

Also compare:

I will return...I will build again... I will build again.... I will set it up (Acts 15:16)

to:

....Lord, dost thou at this time restore .... (Acts 1:6)

The Church is the true Israel of God:

And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6:16


28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2

 

[HankD]

Hank, I'll ask the same to you that olegig asked me on another thread; when do you know when to spiritualize or literalize?

Do you take the following passages literally to mean David and the House of David?:

23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
24 And I, Jehovah, will be their God, and my servant David prince among them; I, Jehovah, have spoken it. Ezek 34

24 And my servant David shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in mine ordinances, and observe my statutes, and do them. Ezek 37

9 but they shall serve Jehovah their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. Jer 30:9

5 afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek Jehovah their God, and David their king, and shall come with fear unto Jehovah and to his goodness in the latter days. Hos 3:5

11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up its ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old; Amos 9

The elders at Jerusalem didn't literalize it:

14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,
18 Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old. Acts 15

Peter never literalized it either, see Acts 2:25-36

Also compare:

I will return...I will build again... I will build again.... I will set it up (Acts 15:16)

to:

....Lord, dost thou at this time restore .... (Acts 1:6)

Hi brother kyredneck.

I will admit that this discernment is sometimes a problem area but then again so is the spiritualization of a passage. How do we know for instance that Isaiah 53 is to be taken literally and not figuratively of Israel which is the rabbinical interpretation?

Or the Genesis account of a six day creation?

Or the flood of Noah was it global or local:
Genesis 7
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

Were the mountains of the earth covered?
Were Noah and his family the only survivors?
Was the earth encapsulated in water for 5 months?

My modus operandi is to take the Bible literally unless there is sufficient evidence to the contrary.

Now I understand that you and many other brethren are sincere and honest in your “yes” answer to the existence of that scriptural evidence and I respect your assessment of the Scriptures in question as there are indeed many metaphors, allegories, figures of speech, parables, etc from which we go from the known to the unknown more easily by their use.

In fact, I may find at the end of the day (to quote a cliché) I was partially if not completely wrong, but I’m not prepared to make that concession at the present time, just willing to accept the possibility.

End part 1 of 2


HankD

 

[HankD]

To answer your question about David sitting on the throne of Israel in Ezekiel 34 (as an example). Yes, I believe he will sit upon that throne of Israel in the 1000 year earthly reign of Jesus Christ.

In that day, Jesus Christ Himself will be Lord of lords and King of kings over the entire earth.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

The Church is the true Israel of God

And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6:16


28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2

I would say that by the “and upon Israel of God” in Galatians 6, Paul is signifying by the “and” that he is making a distinction of the truly redeemed of ancient Israel had this circumcision of the heart and not of hands only. Distinct from those who are within the “church of the firstborn” though being distinct entities but one in that they both have this circumcision not made by hands.

Paul invokes this blessing of peace upon both in this passage.

My take on anything in the Book of Acts is that this book is an infallible record of the apostolic transition from law to grace to include the gentiles as promised in the Abrahamic Covenant or in earthly terms the transition from the earthly manifestation of the kingdom of God from Israel to the church.

The Nation of Israel had the gospel preached to them first (to the Jew first). They at that time rejected it:

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

This will continue until the end of the times of the gentiles:

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

After this calling out of the gentiles is complete, then will come the time of the Great Tribulation the restoration of the Nation of Israel and the millennium to follow.

As seen in the Book of Acts, the apostles were still unsure of the order and timing of the events by their questions to Jesus (Lord, dost thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?) and their relationship to the Law of Moses (Acts 15).

Acts is an inspired and infallible historical book of what they did and said.

They were unaware of the fact that there would be a 2000 year (so far) times of the gentiles before the blinders are to be taken off and the restoration of the kingdom to Israel enacted.

End part 2 of 2

And yes to those who have noticed, though we are drifting from the original O/P this present discussion is relevant to the discussion/debate of the eternal state if there is indeed a temporary period of time (1000 years) just before the eternal state in order that all Scripture be fullfilled and that we don't confound the two (IMO).



HankD

 

[Jerome]

Here is song on Youtube that expresses the sentiments of the OP:laugh: