modern evangelism vs. WOTM

Gekko it is God's desire that all men would be saved. We shouldn't be surprised that in God's plan there would be a lot of people saved. He wishes they all would. What doesn't make sense is why would God devise a plan that it is so difficult to be saved that only a very few would be saved.

He desires that all men would be saved and has devised a plan that is simple and easy to understand. But even with that there are some that don't care and still don't want what God has offered to them. And so they will pay the price for their refusal.

They will be disciplined during that 1,000-year period. You seem to be seeking exact details as to what that looks like and fortunately or unfortunately however you want to look at it God chose not to provide them.

We should be more concerned with what it takes to make sure that doesn't happen than to what is going to happen if I don't do what I'm supposed to. What He has revealed to us is bad enough that we know we don't want to have that happen.

 

then what do you make of:

 

Great question! This is directed to saved individuals and is speaking of the kingdom. There are many that will be eternally saved, because it is a simple message and God desires all men to be saved, so He made it easy (easy is not cheap as some would have you to believe - grace is not cheap - it cost Jesus dearly!).

But while there are many that will find eternal salvation there will be few that find the narrow gate which leads to the kingdom, because the price one has to pay for entrance into the kingdom is quite costly.

Eternal salvation costs you nothing, but discipleship costs you everything. There aren't a lot of people that are willing to give up everything in order to gain entrance into the kingdom.

 

so we get told by scripture what the rewards are... but not what the consequences are?

sounds odd...

 

YOu're right.

It's not a matter of one way being better or worse than another way, but WotM is a much simpler way of presenting the Gospel to those who don't know it, rather than to introduce all sorts of theological debate that you're going to have to sift through before you can get down to business.

"You're a sinner, you need a Savior". It just doesn't get any simpler than that.

 

You aren't really given the details of either one of them. You are told as a reward you will receive crowns to rule and reign with Christ, but the Bible doesn't give us details as to what that will be like.

As for consequences you are told that you will lose your soul and will not be able to rule and reign with Christ and that you will be disciplined for yor disobedience, but we are not given the details as to what that will look like.

The details are not to be our focus. Our focus is to be upon Christ and being transformed into His Image so that we will be able to rule and reign with Him whatever that looks like because it is FAR better than the only other option!

Does that make sense? We have to look unto Jesus during this time to be found worthy when we stand before Him at the judgment seat.

 

J. Jump,

How does one know if they've been faithful enough to reign in the 1,000 year reign? Is there any assurance in your system to know this?

 

i think its called evidence of faith Andy... James talks about.

 

It's not a matter of being faithful enough. It's are you faithful or unfaithful. Are you obedient or disobedient. Are you overcoming the flesh, the world and Satan or are you being overcome by one or more of these.

John 20:30-31, I John 5:13

If we continue to believe to the end and our faith is producing works then we are as secure as possible. But if we stop believing and/or start leading a disobedient life then there is trouble awaiting.

This Truth and assurance really don't go hand in hand per se, because it's a hope. It's not a guarantee, but the hope is believable and firm because of Who the hope is in, but the hope is not a reality until as Paul says we have fought the good fight and "finished" the race. Until then it is merely a hope.

 

Is this a widely taught doctrine? Sounds strange.

 

Hi gekko. Matthew 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate......" Scripture indicates He's not talking to us. The kingdom was at hand, and no Gentile had been invited. The proselyte could, and will, enter the "kingdom" as just that. He'll need the Jew to take him to pray before the Lord. The "time of the Gentile" is over, and the promises are kept.

Praise God for what He kept hidden.

 

Except for the offer of the kingdom is now open to the one new man in Christ, therefore making most of the Gospel accounts relevant to us.

 

It used to be, but unfortunately it is becoming more and more rare, just as the Bible says it will, the closer we get to the return of Christ!

It sounds strange, because churches have been moving away from these Truths for a number of years now.

The Bible tells us that to be amonst the majority in Christendom in the end is not particularly where one wants to find ones self.

If you would like some resource material to study this matters our PM and I would be more than happy to pass them along to you!

 

We do not go marching into the kingdom through the gate, should one be lucky enough to make it through the tribulation.

We are already in Him.

 

He is in us and we are in Him as far as eternal salvation goes, but you seem to think that the kingdom is not a possibility for Christians.

But that is exactly the message that Israel rejected that was subsequently taken away and given to a new nation. That new nation is the one new man in Christ.

When we are saved we are put into a spiritual position to where we can entertain the offer of the kingdom that was offered to Israel.

That's Paul's gospel. He was taught how Gentiles fit into the plan and how they can take part in that which Israel rejected.

First they have to be made alive spiritually and then they they are in a position to accept or reject the offer.

 

We are where He is, so we will be in His kingdom.

Until after Damascus Road this was not possible for the Gentile, or the elect of Israel today. Had the gospel remained the same, the "kingdom" would never come. Israel rejected the Father, Messiah Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. Three strikes and you are out, better known as the "unpardonable sin". Praise God for what He had hidden.

Well put, however we now know this. When did you find out about it? Not until after Damascus Road.

Right again. What if we didn't have the Epistles of Paul? John you say? No, for we find in John what Christ revealed to Paul. No one could really understand what Jesus was talking about. Today we do, for we have the Epistles of Paul, which were written approximately 30 years before John was allowed to write his Gospel. His gospel is the Gospel of Paul which Christ Jesus gave to him (Paul).

Through faith means immediate placement in Him, but not so those that are by faith.

 

The question is not that of being in the kingdom. The question is will you be ruling and reigning with Christ. The answer to that question is maybe. Not all Christians will rule and reign with Christ in His coming kingdom. That is our hope. A hope is not a certainty, but a hope can be realized at some point in the future. Our expectations are to rule and reign with Christ, but we all know expectations can be left disappointed in the end.

I think you are making way too much of semantics where the Bible does not.

Even we are Christians are to live by faith. The Bible says by faith the righteous shall live. Most translations have it the righteous shall live by faith which is a true application, but the wording is actually by faith the righteous shall live.

You are saying that the OT folks were not saved at the very moment they believed, but had to endure and that's just not what the Bible teaches us. Everyone no matter when they lived were eternally saved and the very moment they believed, not years afterward.

 

Why do you change the subject, after your rebuttal is answered? Your post "He is in us and we are in Him as far as eternal salvation goes, but you seem to think that the kingdom is not a possibility for Christians." And then my answer "We are where He is, so we will be in His kingdom."

You answered your next question without acknowledging I proved my point in my answer. You have a knowledge in your mind of ruling and reigning, so let it be sufficient for you. I know I'll not be disappointed with that "sure hope" that waits. I know who it is I believe, and I am persuaded He is more than capable of keeping me, for I am sealed in.

By faith we live, but it is through His faith I am saved.

Yes I'm saying those in the OT had to endure until the end, for that is what His Word teaches. I'll not believe whatever custom man may apply.

Is it possible for you and me to believe on the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation? Yes. Could Moses do that, David or the others? NO for they didn't know His Name, so how could they be "unconditionally saved" as we? Had Jesus shed His "blood" for them. No, so how could they come through his blood? Words do mean a lot, and because we don't understand what we are reading, doesn't negate their meanings when the "qualifiers" are added.

 

Ituttut do you believe that Christians will rule and reign with Christ. Is that a possibility or are Christians going to be in the kingdom because that is where Christ is?

And everyone else that has ever lived! To God be the glory, honor and praise!!!

No it doesn't. Genesis 15 says Abraham was saved the very moment he believed God. It doesn't say that he had to endure.

King Saul didn't endure, but we have no indication in Scripture that he lost his salvation.

There's just zero Biblical evidence for that statement.

Because that's not what God told them to believe. We are told to believe in Jesus. Just because they were told to believe something else doesn't mean that they are less saved, and have to do something else.

God's plan of salvation has and always will be the same.

Not in the human sense, but Jesus was the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world. So yes He was the Sacrifice before the world's foundation. It just didn't become a matter of fact in human history until 29-33 AD or whatever date you want to say, but most think between that time.

 

Again you miss the point. Were they saved and sealed while they lived. Take a look at Palms 28 where the Palmist prays he will not be thrown away with the wicked, and in prayer then thanks the Lord for being his strength and my shield, as he trusted the Lord to help him, and His (the Lords) people. We can see far into prophecy here. Can't we apply this to David? Can’t we apply this to Israel. They look forward for that help, that saving help, what ever it may be, or however it may come about. It is by faith they come, for this is what is available to them.

You have events that must happen in "finite time" to become reality in "infinity". I keep repeating we today are saved through faith, and the faith we are saved by is the "faith of Jesus Christ". Please listen to Jesus as He sweats "blood" as He prays to His Father in Luke 22:42-45, "Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. 43. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. 44. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. 45. And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow."

Jesus so hoped they could come to another solution, but they couldn't. This is it, the time to lay the meat on the table and to be slaughtered. What if Jesus had backed out, or while in the earth given up hope? Could you still say those back then were saved through his faith already receiving their promise by "covenant"? It was not possible. Just what faith would have saved them? Only what was available to them, and that faith was then by faith. Now they can be saved just as we, but not back then before the event occurred. Semantics, or understanding the situation?

We also have another little problem. The battle had not been won even though Jesus was willing to go to the Cross and finish His mission. Listen to Paul, "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." If Israel had not had Jesus killed, we all would have been in that "sunken boat". Semantics or "wisdom that Christ Jesus gave to Paul"?

You can believe it was all fun and games, candy and nuts, but we saved into His Body know without His faith, there is no faith, and the beginning would go on searching for eternity. This is what the world is beginning to believe. Many say Oh Christian friend, don’t you know the gospel has always been the same from the beginning. I say along with Peter, John and Paul, don't believe it.God from eternity knew the outcome, and you are saying man also has always known what God said we didn't know. That thinking puts us right up there on the same level as God. It is only Now we know what God knew. Those of Old could not know it.

But don't you refute God? By faith Abraham believed God and Abraham was justified in the eyes of God. Had Jesus Christ shed His blood at that time? There is no way Abraham could be justified through the faith of Jesus Christ. Abraham has to wait just as does Adam.

We are to correctly divide the Word, and quit listening to "men", and now it seems listening to "women" also whom the world has now decided should become the "head" too. The churches are creating a two-headed monster. Just so very, very sad in our great knowledge, we have come to rely on our wisdom. Why some, the Jimmy Carter's, and you can name the rest, now know it is we the all powerful of this world who will bring peace to this earth. No more waiting for our God for He is just to slow in getting around to it. We will show Him a better way. We will do it ourselves.

God does the judging, not you or I. I quote scripture understood, and the understanding is Saul came by faith and is therefore subject to Hebrew 10:30-31. We see in I Chronicles 10:13-14 who is the only one that is to slay man. It is God, or to whom He delegates that authority. As to Saul's destination in eternity, Christ will judge if Saul endured until the end. I'm saying Saul did not and could not while he lived be saved through faith for it was not available at that time.

But you keep opposing His Word. Did they make "covenant" with God? Did you? They had to do something else.

Did they have to keep the Sabbath? Do you? They had to do something else.

Did they have to offer blood sacrifices as a nation and as individuals? Do you? They had to do something else.

There are still over 600 more things they were to do. Do you?

Amen! And in His plan He revealed as time progressed. Before Damascus Road God had not revealed all of His plan. You say you are a "dispensationalist". Well here it is. What are you going to do with it? Say Abraham knew all about what God had hidden from Him? We now know it all, from the beginning to the end, but Abraham knew what God wanted Him to know. We know about Moses, and Abraham didn't. We know about King David, and Abraham didn't. But you say Abraham knew it all. Abraham is not God.

Only the individual house of the congregation of Israel is told to have a "lamb" and strike the blood of the slain lamb on the two side posts and on the upper doorpost of the houses, where they are to eat it. There is no Gentile ever told to do such a thing. Notice no one before Jesus was born knew the Lamb of God was slain before the foundation of the world.

Your reasoning is that all before, even the Gentile, knew about this, or that it was in effect at the time those of "old" lived. It cannot be so, for if it were so, why did they have to make a substitutionary animal blood sacrifice to HOLD them until the real thing was finished? Jesus told "His people" about the Lamb, but He never said anything about how the "heathen" figured into that equation, unless to come in the Jewish religion as a proselyte. Ephesians 1:4, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." Can you say this was known before Damascus Road?

We Gentiles, and Jews today (or any before) didn't know this until this "dispensation" we now live in. It was not known in any other "dispensation" or "generation".

As to the year, some probably think they know exactly the year He was born in. They claim to know the day He was born, and also the day He died. We can come close as to His birth, but the Catholic church is way off, yet all denomination take their word for it. We know the day Jesus died, and it is not as the church today believe. Man is just so smart, for we know it all, for we make it all up, and man has always known everything from the beginning.