Modern Song Writing

[Ransom]

Dr. Bob Griffin asked about:

Living hymn writers?

Stuart Townend. His song "How Deep the Father's Love for Us" ranks right up there in terms of lyrical beauty, doctrinal richness and correctness, with classic hymns of the faith such as "And Can It Be" and "Amazing Grace." I am not exaggerating. What little else of his music I have heard is excellent as well.

 

[JonathanDT]

I see the future being a mix of hymns and praise choruses. More and more churches will use full worship teams with the drums, guitars, bass, ect. And I think that this is all GOOD. Well, the instruments could be good or bad depending on how they're played. But we should definently be following Colossians 3:16 and playing a mix. My guess is that in the future we will start singing more of the praise songs and less of the hymns until we're down to about 1-2 hymns a service and the rest praise and worship.

Hymn books are definently a thing of the past. I'd bet that most churches will pare their hymn repertoire to under 70, and either have them on a projector or have small booklets. I think that this will be good as your no longer constantly looking down and back up, and if you keep it under 70 then you can pick the best and hopefully have a larger impact from them.

I am not really worried about the future of music, music has been changing since the beginning of the church, and IMO musically the church is better then ever. We just have to be careful about our attitudes and our lyrics, style is mostly irrelevant.

 

[Ransom]

JonathanDT said:

Hymn books are definently a thing of the past. I'd bet that most churches will pare their hymn repertoire to under 70, and either have them on a projector or have small booklets. I think that this will be good as your no longer constantly looking down and back up, and if you keep it under 70 then you can pick the best and hopefully have a larger impact from them.

This would be regrettable, as it effectively means the end of singing parts. A PowerPoint slide does not have the real estate to include words alongside the tune in a way that would make both legible.

We should not be discouraging the use of hymnbooks. Rather, churches should be encouraging the membership to learn music - at the very least, to be able to read it.

[ October 07, 2002, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: Ransom ]

 

[JonathanDT]

Originally posted by Ransom:
This would be regrettable, as it effectively means the end of singing parts. A PowerPoint slide does not have the real estate to include words alongside the tune in a way that would make both legible.[/QB]

No necesarilly. I've heard parts sung without a hymn book before. It was just a chorus book, without the notes, but the girls at the retreat knew how to sing it, just beautiful. Or if you have a good worship team it's really easy to do parts, just have the backup singers sing them and some in the congregation will follow along.

 

[Ransom]

That's not singing parts, that's merely singing the chords in the tablature.

I'm talking about the arrangements of the hymns as found in the hymnals, written that way specifically by the composer. While many of them are quite dull (with us basses singing nothing but the fundamental of the chords, for example), many other arrangements of classic hymns are sublime.

No one who knew the melody to "And Can It Be" and had the words projected on screen could intuit Thomas Campbell's intricate harmonies and counterpoint.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by JonathanDT:
Hymn books are definently a thing of the past.

It would be terribly foolish to do any with hymnals. It's similar to all the claims that printed books are dead -- that's not going to happen anytime soon.

Hymnals are portable stores of hymns (projectors are not) that supply the singer with lyrics, scripture references, guides to meter, and the music notation itself. Hymnals allow people who do not know the hymns to pick up the songs quickly and sing in parts easily. Frankly, I learned to read by singing from the hymnal when I was very young. I watched the notes "bounce" up and down the scale and made the connection that the words underneath were the words we were singing. I was reading before I ever went to school and I had a theological foundation to boot!

I'd bet that most churches will pare their hymn repertoire to under 70

The great thing about a hymnal is that it keeps many hymn choices in front of you at all times. My church intentionally tries to sing at least one of the less familiar hymns each Sunday in order to get a more rounded worship experience. We also integrate contemporary music and worship forms into most worship services as well.

I think that this will be good as your no longer constantly looking down and back up,

You're not holding the hymnal properly. Hold the hymnal just below eye level away from your body and sing out. Your eyes can easily move from the director/worship leader to the page and back without having to move your head.

and if you keep it under 70 then you can pick the best and hopefully have a larger impact from them.

All you are going is limiting your experience. While there are a few clunkers in most hymnals ("God of Earth and Outer Space" in the 1975 Baptist Hymnal springs to mind), most hymnals are filled with the "greatest hits" of the Christian faith. The music has stood the test of time and have been accepted by the larger church as being worthwhile expressions of Christian faith and practice. I have heard too many recent works that don't cut it musically or theologically. You know Fanny Crosby wrote many hymn texts, but only her best work has endured. Contemporary composers produce a lot of mediocre work with only a few gems as well. I say that as someone who writes lyrics for contemporary worship -- I am currently working on a worship lyric for Advent. Most of my work has been mediocre but there have been some brighter moments. It will be at least a few years before I have anything I would want to inflict on anyone outside our congregation

I am not really worried about the future of music, music has been changing since the beginning of the church, and IMO musically the church is better then ever. We just have to be careful about our attitudes and our lyrics, style is mostly irrelevant.

I believe that musical style is something that is constantly changing and growing, but much of what passes for contemporary praise and worship music in church reminds me of a 1970s-era lounge act. We need to be mindful of the need for excellence in the public worship of our Lord.

 

[rsr]

They'll get my hymnal when they pry it from my cold, lifeless fingers.

Hymnals are a treasury of theology and church history. From time to time I pick it up and just read it.

The fact that we seldom sing some of the hymns doesn't mean they don't sometimes make an impression. If we sing 272, does that mean I don't look at 273, even if only casually.

I was watching a church service on TV last night in which the pastor expounded on "Jesus, Lover of My Soul." Did a nice job, too.

 

[rsr]

Ransom:

many other arrangements of classic hymns are sublime.

Like Bach's harmonization of "O Sacred Head Now Wounded."

John Rutter has also done some good work breathing new life into old hymns.

 

[Grasshopper]

I was never exposed to real praise and worship music in the church when I was growing up in the 70's. It was mostly all hymns with the Gaither music starting to come in. I think Baptists have been "scared" of emotion in church so we stayed away from P and W type music. After being exposed to some of the newer P and W music I feel I now understand what true worship is.

I still like old hymns, and the Gaither music, but I believe the church is spreading to include great Praise and Worship song that were missing in my youth. Songs like "Shout to the Lord", "Awesome in this Place" "I Exalt Thee",Lift Your Name on High" and many others.

Songs that we sing TO our Saviour not ABOUT our Saviour will be a big part of the future church. There should be enough room for all.

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by JonathanDT:
I see the future being a mix of hymns and praise choruses...

I have been guitar player (amongst other things) at last two Churches. Last Church was good, I got to do the song-picking. I used a fairly even mix of hymns and Scripture in Song choruses. I would always let everyone know that if they wanted anything played to let me know, and if I didn't know it I'ld learn it.

My guess is that in the future we will start singing more of the praise songs and less of the hymns...Hymn books are definently a thing of the past. I'd bet that most churches will pare their hymn repertoire to under 70

Then please stop the planet...I would like to get off now...

...until we're down to about 1-2 hymns a service and the rest praise and worship.

Actually a few Churches in this area have almost eradicated hymns from their services, they seem to consider them thoughtcrime One local Church had 7 or 8 choruses/hillsongs/etc every morning, then when some of congregation said they would like a hymn or two now and then they were called selfish for it

I am not really worried about the future of music, music has been changing since the beginning of the church, and IMO musically the church is better then ever.

Mate, I am VERY worried. I hate to imagine what will happen in the Church if it keeps throwing out hymns with solid teaching to replace them with songs about as shallow as the hole an ant leaves on a diamond after parachuting onto it from a height of 17.3147cm...This is not to throw out the baby with the bath-water and bash all new choruses/hillsongs/etc, there is some wheat amongst the weeds...

We just have to be careful about our attitudes and our lyrics, style is mostly irrelevant.

Exactly We have to be careful with lyrics, which is why we should be using hymns

In Sunday School at old Church I was teaching hymns to non-Church family 10 year olds by going through the hymn line by line (word by word if needed) and explaining what it meant. The kids loved them. Hymns are not dead yet

Pete

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
Hymnals are portable stores of hymns (projectors are not)...

I think the over-head projector is a great tool...when they work

The great thing about a hymnal is that it keeps many hymn choices in front of you at all times.

So many to choose from, and most hymnals give so many ways to choose. Scripture reference index, topical index, etc. That could not be done with a lot of new songs, as a lot of them do not have Scripture or topics At old Church I used the writer index a few times in preparing specials on Fanny Crosby & Charles Wesley.

My church intentionally tries to sing at least one of the less familiar hymns each Sunday in order to get a more rounded worship experience.

hmmm...I am thinking about moving that way... I read my hymnal a bit, there are a lot in there I do not know but wish I did

Contemporary composers produce a lot of mediocre work with only a few gems as well. I say that as someone who writes lyrics for contemporary worship -- I am currently working on a worship lyric for Advent. Most of my work has been mediocre but there have been some brighter moments.

I dream of being able to write good enough to work my way up to mediocre

...but much of what passes for contemporary praise and worship music in church reminds me of a 1970s-era lounge act.

I would have put it down to a big Eagles/Queen/Abba/Neil Diamond influence myself...

We need to be mindful of the need for excellence in the public worship of our Lord.

Amen amen amen!

Pete

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Titus2_1:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
My church intentionally tries to sing at least one of the less familiar hymns each Sunday in order to get a more rounded worship experience.

hmmm...I am thinking about moving that way... I read my hymnal a bit, there are a lot in there I do not know but wish I did

</font>[/QUOTE]Just want to note that I am not responsible for the music program at my church… The minister of music has taken our church in that direction. He is simply following a long tradition of musical excellence in our church. It is my understanding that he wants to integrate the best of contemporary forms with the more traditional hymns. From week to week we may have just about any combination of instruments in use in worship – according the worship selections for the day. One of the more memorable recent worship experiences was the opening of morning worship singing with a Cat Stevens-like arrangement of “Morning Has Broken” with guitar, electric bass, hand drums and piano that move naturally into “This is My Father’s World” and then to “Fairest Lord Jesus” where the organist kicked (pulling all the stops) with brief joyful trumpet solos between the verses. The congregation sang the all three songs in parts and the choir added musical accents

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Contemporary composers produce a lot of mediocre work with only a few gems as well. I say that as someone who writes lyrics for contemporary worship -- I am currently working on a worship lyric for Advent. Most of my work has been mediocre but there have been some brighter moments.

I dream of being able to write good enough to work my way up to mediocre </font>[/QUOTE]My mother says it’s mediocre… She also has always told me I’m the most handsome boy in my grade.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />...but much of what passes for contemporary praise and worship music in church reminds me of a 1970s-era lounge act.

I would have put it down to a big Eagles/Queen/Abba/Neil Diamond influence myself... </font>[/QUOTE]Hmm… Abba.

I wonder if there is something that can be done to Christianize “Dancing Queen”?

 

[Ransom]

Titus2_1 said:

I think the over-head projector is a great tool...when they work

Funny you should mention that. I'm one of the PowerPoint operators at my church. One Sunday evening, I was setting up the computer and projector, and about 5 minutes before the service began I discovered that the internal configuration of the projector had been wiped. It couldn't display what was on the computer.

After a hasty word with the pastor, we switched to favourites from the hymnal. I've managed to crash the coffee machine at work, but never a book.

 

[stubbornkelly]

As a tool, I guess projectors are okay. However, I'm got really tired of going to church, asking for the music to a newfangled (I can't believe I said newfangled - I'm only 25!) song, and being proudly told that "it's on the screen," or "it's in the bulletin." Er, last I checked, the lyrics were printed in the bulletin or projected on the screen, but not the music.

*grumble**grumble*

We don't sing at the meeting I've been attending, so it's not been an issue.

 

[JonathanDT]

First, wow. I didn't realize my comment would have such a reaction. I apologize if it offended anyone, DrBob asked for where we thought the future of music was heading, and I gave my opinion.

For the hymn books, let me explain. I don't think that they will be totally removed from the church, they will still reside there, but will be rarely used as the words will be put on the projector. As I said will be better for most since they don't know how to read music anyway, and they don't hold the hymnal correctly(Look around in church sometime and see how many times people look up and down because of where they hold the hymnal).
As for paring the number of hymns to 70, how many do we really sing over a 6 month period? If the number of hymns sung for service is reduced to 2 per service, which I think it will be in most churches, 70 hymns will still allow you to go 8 months without repeating a hymn; to me that sounds like a fairly long time. FYI I wan't including most Christmas carols and such in that 70, I believe that most of them will be included in a seperate booklet which will be easy to use for caroling.
BaptistBeliever, I understand if you think of the praise & worship as '70s lounge music, but my generation doesn't. We aren't old enough to remember that music, and to many of us praise and worship has a distict sound that we haven't heard in the secular world. I guess different generations + different experiences = different worship styles. But that's cool, and I don't believe that God prefers one style over another, just that we glorify him with everything we are.

Actually a few Churches in this area have almost eradicated hymns from their services, they seem to consider them thoughtcrime One local Church had 7 or 8 choruses/hillsongs/etc every morning, then when some of congregation said they would like a hymn or two now and then they were called selfish for it

Titus, it is sad that there would be such dissension among us about music, I think all should be reminded of Ephesians 5:19, "Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs . Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord,"

God Bless,
~JD

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by JonathanDT:
First, wow. I didn't realize my comment would have such a reaction. I apologize if it offended anyone, DrBob asked for where we thought the future of music was heading, and I gave my opinion.

No offense here.

For the hymn books, let me explain. I don't think that they will be totally removed from the church, they will still reside there, but will be rarely used as the words will be put on the projector.

Again... the hymnal has the music, not just the words. You are cheating the congregation unless you give them the opportunity to sing parts and contribute beauty to the worship experience. I am not opposed to the projector, but I am opposed to the way hymnals are routinely dismissed as irrelevant by "projector-loving" churches. The worship leaders often send a clear message to the congregation that the hymnal is of little use, and nothing could be further from the truth.

While many of the latest "praise" choruses lack multiple vocal parts (as well as theological and corporate meaning), worship leaders should still find a way to provide the music to the congregation.

As I said will be better for most since they don't know how to read music anyway,

Lots of people know how to read music! Ask around, you might be surprised. But I have noticed that people who *do* know how to read music often avoid "projector" churches because they are very musically unfriendly to those who want to do more than simply sing the melody. When a person has musical understanding, they want to be able to use that understanding to glorify God -- not just sing the lowest common denominator kind of music.

and they don't hold the hymnal correctly(Look around in church sometime and see how many times people look up and down because of where they hold the hymnal).

I have. Most people in my congregation know how to hold the hymnal because we have a long history of using it! Frankly, I learned how to hold music in public school -- it is a simple technique that takes 30 seconds to teach. The worship leader could take a moment before worship one Sunday morning and talk about the importance of giving God our best and give a 1 minute lesson on posture, breathing and the proper way to hold a hymnal -- I have witnessed such a lesson in 2 churches. I doubt anyone would be offended and the worship experience of the entire congregation is enhanced.

As for paring the number of hymns to 70, how many do we really sing over a 6 month period? If the number of hymns sung for service is reduced to 2 per service, which I think it will be in most churches, 70 hymns will still allow you to go 8 months without repeating a hymn; to me that sounds like a fairly long time. FYI I wan't including most Christmas carols and such in that 70, I believe that most of them will be included in a seperate booklet which will be easy to use for caroling.

Our church easily sings approximately 200 hymns a year, not to mention some contemporary music and music written by members of our congregation. A better question would be, why should we pare down our music selection at all?

BaptistBeliever, I understand if you think of the praise & worship as '70s lounge music, but my generation doesn't.

"My generation"? Now I have gotten old! Congratulations on being the first person to say there is a generation gap between me and the latest crop of youngsters!

I'm afraid you've mistaken me for a fuddy-duddy!

I don't know how old you think I am (I still feel like a person in their early 20s), but I'm only 37. I listen to radio and keep up with the latest trends in music. My love is a professional musician (electric guitar, classical guitar, acoustic guitar, electric bass guitar, lute) and she keeps me informed of all the musical trends that I have missed on my own. We go to concerts about 8 to 9 times a year (all kinds of music including Christian and "secular") and we write music together (I do lyrics, she writes the tunes).

I'm hardly a fuddy-duddy!

We aren't old enough to remember that music, and to many of us praise and worship has a distict sound that we haven't heard in the secular world. I guess different generations + different experiences = different worship styles.

It's too easy to say it is a generation thing... There are some differences of course, but many people in "my generation" like what is known as "Praise and Worship" music with the projector. A number of teens I know who have been exposed to a wide variety of music also enjoy a more traditional style of worship.

I have some appreciation for contemporary Christian music and praise and worship choruses, but too many times it seems the choruses are repeated over and over like a mantra in order to achieve some sort of emotional response instead of moving both the heart *and* mind to contemplate God and worship Him in majesty. There is a local Bible church that does an excellent job with their contemporary worship (using a projector and everything), but most of the time it seems to be something much less than transcendent.

But that's cool, and I don't believe that God prefers one style over another, just that we glorify him with everything we are.

Yes, but to glorify God with everything we are, we need to strive for excellence and opportunities to enhance our worship experience.

[ October 10, 2002, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by JonathanDT
First, wow. I didn't realize my comment would have such a reaction. I apologize if it offended anyone, DrBob asked for where we thought the future of music was heading, and I gave my opinion.

No offense this way mate

I see music in Church heading the same way atm, however think hymns should be retained as a majority of them are a lot more solid than some newer songs. I would not put a number limit on using songs from whatever source, be it hymns or hillsongs. The content of the song is another story.

Originally posted by Baptist Believer
"My generation"? [Eek!] Now I have gotten old! Congratulations on being the first person to say there is a generation gap between me and the latest crop of youngsters!

I have had that problem for a few years now on IRC, especially when I start raving on about all the things I remember from the 70s..."Now when I was a boy..."

I don't know how old you think I am (I still feel like a person in their early 20s), but I'm only 37. I listen to radio and keep up with the latest trends in music. My love is a professional musician (electric guitar, classical guitar, acoustic guitar, electric bass guitar, lute) and she keeps me informed of all the musical trends that I have missed on my own.

I'm 33 and an amateur muso... (welllllll...no, actually, I do not have enough knowledge to be called a muso, or enough ability to rank as an amateur, but anyway...)..Musically I am into a lot of styles and (try to) play acoustic 6 & 12 strings & a Strat.

I was going to type a long gory story here, but will leave that one for later.

Pete

 

[JonathanDT]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
Again... the hymnal has the music, not just the words. You are cheating the congregation unless you give them the opportunity to sing parts and contribute beauty to the worship experience. I am not opposed to the projector, but I am opposed to the way hymnals are routinely dismissed as irrelevant by "projector-loving" churches. The worship leaders often send a clear message to the congregation that the hymnal is of little use, and nothing could be further from the truth.

While many of the latest "praise" choruses lack multiple vocal parts (as well as theological and corporate meaning), worship leaders should still find a way to provide the music to the congregation.

Which is why I think that the hymnals will still be in the pews, just rarely used. I can read music, but personally I'm just as comfortable without it, so just hearing the song sung once is usually enough for me. And if there ARE parts, that's what any backup singers, or even a choir, are for.

Lots of people know how to read music! Ask around, you might be surprised. But I have noticed that people who *do* know how to read music often avoid "projector" churches because they are very musically unfriendly to those who want to do more than simply sing the melody. When a person has musical understanding, they want to be able to use that understanding to glorify God -- not just sing the lowest common denominator kind of music.

I don't know, you have much more experience then me so I'll defer to you.

Our church easily sings approximately 200 hymns a year, not to mention some contemporary music and music written by members of our congregation. A better question would be, why should we pare down our music selection at all?

Wow. I'm pretty sure we sing under 100. Usually around 3 per service, with 4-6 choruses. I guess if you include the evening service that might take the number up slightly, but even then usually we just sing the whatever hymns the congregation wants to sing, so normally its not a wide variety.

"My generation"? Now I have gotten old! Congratulations on being the first person to say there is a generation gap between me and the latest crop of youngsters!

I'm afraid you've mistaken me for a fuddy-duddy!

I don't know how old you think I am (I still feel like a person in their early 20s), but I'm only 37. I listen to radio and keep up with the latest trends in music. My love is a professional musician (electric guitar, classical guitar, acoustic guitar, electric bass guitar, lute) and she keeps me informed of all the musical trends that I have missed on my own. We go to concerts about 8 to 9 times a year (all kinds of music including Christian and "secular") and we write music together (I do lyrics, she writes the tunes).

I'm hardly a fuddy-duddy!

LOL.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I thought you were old. Just that it is obvious that you have heard more then most people my age(GenX), so something that reminds you of a 1970s lounge act wouldn't have even remotely the same meaning to me, since I wasn't even alive in the '70s. To me that style has always been P&W.

It's too easy to say it is a generation thing... There are some differences of course, but many people in "my generation" like what is known as "Praise and Worship" music with the projector. A number of teens I know who have been exposed to a wide variety of music also enjoy a more traditional style of worship.

I have some appreciation for contemporary Christian music and praise and worship choruses, but too many times it seems the choruses are repeated over and over like a mantra in order to achieve some sort of emotional response instead of moving both the heart *and* mind to contemplate God and worship Him in majesty. There is a local Bible church that does an excellent job with their contemporary worship (using a projector and everything), but most of the time it seems to be something much less than transcendent.

I know not to stereotype so much as to assume that everyone of my age prefers P&W over the hymns. However, most of my friends do, in fact my two best friends have a praise and worship rock band. I have been in some not so good P&W services, and some that were so good I couldn't even describe it. The same with the hymns, I've been in a number of GREAT services that used the old hymns, and many that the congregation just seemed...dead. Too often it seems that the church gets complacent with the music, and after singing the same songs for 50 years some just seem to go through the motions. I assume that eventually the same will happen with the P&W if we're not careful, but I think that this is one of the reasons we must be adding new songs, whether they be hymns or P&W.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />But that's cool, and I don't believe that God prefers one style over another, just that we glorify him with everything we are.

Yes, but to glorify God with everything we are, we need to strive for excellence and opportunities to enhance our worship experience.</font>[/QUOTE]True. The problem is that different people will respond differently to different music. They will be more likely to sing with the highest excellence to music that they enjoy. It certainly doesn't make it easy to accomplish excellence under such diverse conditions, and I think that each congregation will have to find the best combination of music for their particular church.

God Bless,
~JD

 

[JonathanDT]

Originally posted by Titus2_1:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JonathanDT
First, wow. I didn't realize my comment would have such a reaction. I apologize if it offended anyone, DrBob asked for where we thought the future of music was heading, and I gave my opinion.

No offense this way mate

I see music in Church heading the same way atm, however think hymns should be retained as a majority of them are a lot more solid than some newer songs. I would not put a number limit on using songs from whatever source, be it hymns or hillsongs. The content of the song is another story.</font>[/QUOTE]Oops, sorry, I meant to address this but forgot.
Titus, I wouldn't put a hard "cap" or anything on the hymns, I just think that as people go through trying to find the best hymns they will naturally narrow it down to under 70. Granted that there are many many more good hymns then that, but not many more popular hymns that the average church goer would recognize. In fact, I'd bet at 70 hymns you could include the top 5 favorites of 80% of Baptists. Amazing Grace, Peace Like a River, Old Rugged Cross, A Mighty Fortress Is Our God, and Nothing But the Blood. Honestly, how many of those songs are in your "Top 5?"

God Bless,
~JD

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by JonathanDT:
Oops, sorry, I meant to address this but forgot.
Titus, I wouldn't put a hard "cap" or anything on the hymns, I just think that as people go through trying to find the best hymns they will naturally narrow it down to under 70. Granted that there are many many more good hymns then that, but not many more popular hymns that the average church goer would recognize.

I think it would go the other way mate. If anyone went looking through the hymnbook for the good ones they would come out with a lot more than 70 from the exercise

(Start the bidding at 10 times that )

It wouldn't take much for almost any hymn to be as recognizable or popular as some of the "greatest hits" (for want of a better phrase) of Watts, Wesley, Crosby & co. The song would only have to be introduced and used a few Sundays in a row for it to sink in. I introduced a few SiS choruses to old Church that way.

In fact, I'd bet at 70 hymns you could include the top 5 favorites of 80% of Baptists. Amazing Grace, Peace Like a River, Old Rugged Cross, A Mighty Fortress Is Our God, and Nothing But the Blood. Honestly, how many of those songs are in your "Top 5?"

You probably could get a lot of top fives from 70 hymns. You could definitely make everyone consider their top fives if used 700 hymns Don't ask me to pick a top five please mate, my brain will explode at possibilities

Pete