Modernism

[sag38]

Yeah, and everyone else is going to hell in a hand basket except for good old salzer the pharisee who likes to rail about his extra biblical pet peeves than actually proclaiming the good news of the gospel message.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeah, and everyone else is going to hell in a hand basket except for good old salzer the pharisee who likes to rail about his extra biblical pet peeves than actually proclaiming the good news of the gospel message.

good news is that jesus kept the Law of God perfectly for our behalf, NOT that God expects sinless perfection before we can merit salvation!

 

[salzer mtn]

Yeah, and everyone else is going to hell in a hand basket except for good old salzer the pharisee who likes to rail about his extra biblical pet peeves than actually proclaiming the good news of the gospel message.

sag, I actually didn't know you believed everyone else is going to hell but me. Which one of my post was the turning point for you, tell me, I might use it again.

 

[quantumfaith]

The real reason churches have decided to leave off the amens and do the clapping thing, bring rock bands into the church, making it a point in each service to call out peoples name to honor them, childrens church, coffee lounges, game rooms is to draw more people, young and old a like. The simple church service of a couple of songs, someone read scripture and pray and listen to a gospel message is not good enough any more because all of the goats will get bored. Sheep are satisfied with feasting on the gospel. The goats have to have entertainment to chew on lest they become bored and quit, clap, clap, clap.

You are dern right, I WANT to draw people. Draw people to be exposed to worship and the message of the Gospel. The message that there is hope for their redemption. I am not shamed in that and will remain so.

 

[salzer mtn]

You are dern right, I WANT to draw people. Draw people to be exposed to worship and the message of the Gospel. The message that there is hope for their redemption. I am not shamed in that and will remain so.

Switch and bait, twist it around any way you like.

 

[JonC]

I have seen churches change to “draw” people, and some have become irrelevant in the process. They draw people, but to what - a false sense of security and spirituality. This isn’t always the case, but it is something they need to consider.

I have seen others hold on to traditionalism at the expense of the gospel. They speak with a voice that is incoherent to modern society as they try to keep the gospel contained within the familiar constructs of their fathers. This isn’t always the case, and there is real value in tradition. It’s just something they need to consider.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

sag, I actually didn't know you believed everyone else is going to hell but me. Which one of my post was the turning point for you, tell me, I might use it again.

Ah ha, ah ha ha ha....now thats funny right there. admit it :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Youse guys need to go to an old school Baptist Church if ya dont like the new school format....thats what I would do.:thumbsup:

 

[salzer mtn]

I have seen churches change to “draw” people, and some have become irrelevant in the process. They draw people, but to what - a false sense of security and spirituality. This isn’t always the case, but it is something they need to consider.

I have seen others hold on to traditionalism at the expense of the gospel. They speak with a voice that is incoherent to modern society as they try to keep the gospel contained within the familiar constructs of their fathers. This isn’t always the case, and there is real value in tradition. It’s just something they need to consider.

If the true gospel of Gods grace is preached it will never be incoherent to any society.

 

[JonC]

If the true gospel of Gods grace is preached it will never be incoherent to any society.

The gospel, no. I agree. That should be the focus of any church regardless of its worship style. But some churches go too far to “be” the culture that the gospel isn’t preached. Others go too far in adhering to antiquated tradition that they allow it to replace the gospel message.

An example is Paul preaching in the Areopagus. He didn’t begin by discounting their culture, but instead used their understanding to introduce the gospel. I am afraid that many traditional churches today would have never gotten past condemning their idolatry to even have the opportunity to mention the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I’m afraid some “modern” churches would allow those idols.

Don’t’ get me wrong, I am a “traditionalist” when it comes to preference. I don’t clap or cheer at ballgames so if it’s done in church I feel uncomfortable (it’s simply out of character for me). At the same time, I cannot condemn those who put Psalms to contemporary music because it is not unbiblical and doing so would make me hypocritical (those hymns that I love and the music that accompany them are not what was sung in the early church – they too were at one time modern).

 

[Thomas Helwys]

they are NOT obeying and heeding the word of God, as there are NO scriptures that support a woman ordained as Pastoral authority in a local body!

Do you make your women keep silent in the church? No? Then you are not obeying the word of God.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

This statement reminds me of the threads with titles in them that include words like "irrefutable". Just claiming it does not make it so. But good luck with that.

The fact that there are conservative denominations that ordain women is what refutes you. I know you don't like that truth, but it remains the truth nevertheless.

 

[pinoybaptist]

People pride (sin) themselves by calling it "old time" or "old fashioned" religion.

Like thin black ties, shiny black pants and scuffed shoes of the 1950's was "spiritual". Anything else is "modern".

But they use glasses (modern invention), stoves (modern), a/c . .electricity . . p.a. systems . . internet . . ads . . and a thousand more modern inventions. Probably even have padded pews (but they DO have pews, and not evil padded stack chairs.

"Old Timey Camp Meeting" was advertised for a local group and I thought for sure they have a Billy Sunday wannabe or snake handler or preacher come in on horse back or in a 57 Chevy (depending on HOW "old timey" they wanted to be)

Sadly, they just had a screacher (part screamer, part preacher) yelling about the evils of today from "Hellywood" and the "Boob Tube" and short-haired/pants wearing backsliding heifers. Seriously. Called the women "heifers".

I am SO GLAD I am an evil 'modernist' those no-brainers.

I assume you know the difference between aids to worship and additions to worship ?

electricity instead of oil-burning lamp, running water instead of pumped out water, a heating system instead of wood burning stoves, modern toilets instead of squat-down latrines and outhouses, ceiling, standing and table fans or an air-conditioning system instead of hand fans, pews and chairs instead of standing for hours like the OT worshippers ? these are 'aids' to worship and there is nothing in the New Testament that prohibits them nor encourages them, so I guess that will be up to a church if they'd rather go totally old-time like some factions of the Amish people do in their worship and life styles, right ?

now, additions to worship like church choirs, church special numbers, bands, drums, percussions, stringed or wind instruments, and such like that tend to distract from worship and place the admiration on the talents of their players and singers and then hypocritically attributing praise to God, "special officers" in addition to what is New Testament prescribed, pastor and deacon, program of worship, none of which were practiced by any of the first century new testament churches in the Bible, that is modernism to include additiions to worship.

 

[Revmitchell]

additions[/B] to worship like church choirs, church special numbers, bands, drums, percussions, stringed or wind instruments, and such like that tend to distract from worship and place the admiration on the talents of their players and singers and then hypocritically attributing praise to God,

That is a false claim and a bunch of garbage.

 

[evenifigoalone]

And, yes, it is a scriptural issue, and these groups and other conservatives interpret the scripture on the matter differently from you.

Ditto. I wasn't able to find it to link here, but I recently read an article on this issue that made some excellent points regarding the meaning of those scripture passages.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I think having modern equipment, music, etc in church is okay--I don't see why churches need to be stuck in the past in order to be "separate from the world". That's possibly missing the whole point, IMO. And if they put so much emphasis on accepting the lifestyle of decades ago, isn't it still the lifestyle of the world, albeit one not in use anymore?
I just see being separate from the world as more of a belief and life choices issue--being separate from the world is not living in and being in bondage to sin. Being separate from the world is living in such a way that others see Christ in you. Being separate from the world is not following or accepting the lies of the world. Being separate from the world is ministering to the lost and those who need help and support. Etc, etc, etc.

The world should see a difference in us from other people--but that difference should not be rejecting modern life in general just because we can. Things like not saying "cool" because it's worldly slang (and, yes, I know someone who believed that) is not being separate in any way that counts--it's legalism that gives you the false impression of living a good Christian life without actually doing the hard stuff like loving your enemies and really ministering to the poor and needy or going out and sharing the gospel with a lost world.

But maybe I'm more accepting of living modernly because I'm in my early (very early) twenties.

Anywho--
You'll find a lot of churches that have these things and are obviously living in the 21st century and are still creationists, take a literal view of the Bible, teach sound Biblical doctrine, etc.


The church I used to attend constantly criticized other churches in the area in their sermons for things like having fundraisers, using a projector instead of a hymnal (I never understood why that was something to criticize), having children's church, etc, etc, etc. It just rubbed me the wrong way and smacked of petty legalism. And are we really supposed to be talking about our brothers and sisters in Christ like that, speaking of them as unbelievers--over something so petty???
I understood the scriptural reasons my old church had for not having fundraisers and I certainly understand the thinking behind children listening to the same sermon the adults do--but I just can't see it as inherently wrong to have children's church.
And I'm not sure what to think of fundraisers, especially on church property--but sheesh, the church I attend now had one just last night and I even participated by baking for it. Even if they're wrong on that one point, that's not something that would make me stop attending.

Now clapping--personally I clap because I have a hard time speaking out in a crowd. Clapping's just a much easier and less socially awkward way of showing my agreement.


But overall--hey, there's plenty to choose from in churches, so you can choose whatever best fits your belief system. That's the beauty of freedom of religion.