Modesty in Medical Settings

[Jerome]

At the VA, I had a female Doctor

Not surprising, after the American Board of Gynecology's policy revisions in 2014:

Cleveland Plain Dealer • Gynecologists can treat male patients, says board that certifies them

And:

Minneapolis Star Tribune • March 16, 2015

[Obama's] VA Secretary Bob McDonald told the Senate Veterans Affairs Committee in February that he was committed to recruiting more gynecologists

 

[Biblical Modesty]

I agree with the first, and have no idea about the second. But since this thread isn't about pastors, deacons, plumbers, and carpenters, I only spoke to what it is about. Not to dismiss the others, but on this topic, at least at times the doctor/patient relationship can give access that can really go south. For example, I read an article from last year that said USA Gymnastics doctor Lawrence Nassar abused at least 265 women and girls.

Nevertheless, I don't suspect that a majority of doctors go into the field in order to view nudity or molest members of the opposite sex.

It is true that this thread is not about non-medical professionals. Medical professionals are more likely to abuse women because they see them naked. Yes, other professionals do abuse people.

You are right about Dr. Larry Nassar abusing patients. He had no business doing any intimate procedures on women and girls since he was a sports medicine doctor. We mentioned some doctors including Dr. Paul Becton, he was a well respected gynecologist who claimed to be a Christian in the Christian community and Dr. Nikita Levy around 40:24 mark of the video. They both secretly took pictures of women's private parts. You can find a list of doctors according to news articles who have sexually abused patients by going to Sexual Misconduct Cases By Doctors in News. The list of gynecologists at Find Misconduct Cases By OB/GYN Physicians is large.

I understand your concerns about homosexual doctors. You can find an answer to this question on Questions and Answers About Difficult Medical Modesty Issues.

 

[HankD]

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

 

[Benjamin]

I am sad by many of the defiant responses to this video. I am not surprised by the negative responses by those who work in the medical field because the medical industry has a lot of power in our society.

From the start, I have taken note of your choice of the words “defiant responses” and would like to make it perfectly clear that I do not consider your opinions or this video an authority to which I should be obedient, in fact I do not think you speak for the will of God in this matter and have poor unsupported interpretations, ...so that makes it pretty hard for me to be “defiant”. Further, the use of that phrase is quite a telling of your mindset along with your belief that these/us inferior medical professionals who are apparently so vulnerable to being brainwashed by worldly powers whereby I can only assume that you and yours must consider yourselves to have superior biblical knowledge leading to better morals and to be above such influences.

Second, I think you need to check your judgment of others (Christians) because to start with from early on in my Christian walk God wrote these words on my heart which are my one of my life verses that I live by:

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Part of what has strengthened me to not be conformed to the world and enabled me to prove what the will of God is my ability to recognize and draw out the truth in a biblical matters while being able to also spot the poor reasoning of those that I might suggest are on a religious moral power-building agenda.

Frankly, I suspect you have a lot to learn about the imperfections of man, the depths of grace, the use of the law and the place Jesus wants us to be in our hearts before you start thinking that you can school mature Christians about moral superiority. Equally, you would do well to recognize the fallacious question begging that most all of your argument is built upon which is your so called “absolute” that it is never appropriate to discern modesty in any other way than your preconceived ideas.

So much more of your reasoning to address here, but for now I have a 98 year man who wants to walk again that will be waiting on me to get him there…

 

[MartyF]

There are obvious difficulties with nudity. The medical profession in the U.S. is not as bad as some socialist and former socialist countries.

I would feel uncomfortable with male as well as female members of the sex trying to look at and mess with my junk and prescribing procedures which are unneeded for the purpose of doing so.

This has personally happened to me where nurses and others proscribed an unneeded procedure for the purpose of messing with my junk. However, I do not think it is commonplace.

I don't think this is a silly topic. I understand that the majority of the medical profession is professional. But I would definitely ask a male gynecologist why he decided to study gynecology if I had a young wife having to see him. I understand older gynecologists and the limitations women had to be in the profession in the 60s through 80s. I would have a more difficult time with a younger male gynecologist.

 

[HankD]

Personally I have a problem with a male doctor examining my paraphernalia

Yes I suppose I have some sort of phobia.

 

[Revmitchell]

I am sad by many of the defiant responses to this video.

Defiant? There is certainly opposition to it and for good reason.

I am not surprised by the negative responses by those who work in the medical field because the medical industry has a lot of power in our society.

You do realize this implies that these people cannot think for themselves and crumble to your perceived pressure.

There have been numerous medical professionals who were very uncomfortable with doing procedures on the opposite sex when they first started medical or nursing schools, but then got desensitized. See 1:04:12 mark of the video about this part about two nursing students who became desensitized.

There have also been numerous medical professionals who have had a hard time looking at blood and guts but have also become desensitized to it. Being desensitized to something, itself, is not proof of a wrong.

It is important for you to view the full video like you are listening to a sermon.

It may be important to you but it is a very long video and you have not given us a good reason to give up that time for something like this.

I believe women should go to who ever they are comfortable with and when they do no sin is committed any more today than it was when there were no female doctors.

 

[David Kent]

When I read a list of births in the record of a Strict Baptist Church near here in the mid 1800's, the miodwife and nurse attending the birth were named. In many cases tghe midwiife was a male. In most of the cases when he wasn't the midwife, he was the nurse. This record covered several similar churches which were all in the Weald of Kent. It seemed that one church kept records of the births, another of marriages and a third of deaths.

 

[Salty]

I wonder if "Biblical Modesty is Mrs. Steve Anderson

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Mayap, but at least she is interacting with us.

I wonder if "Biblical Modesty is Mrs. Steve Anderson

 

[Deacon]

Personally I have a problem with a male doctor examining my paraphernalia

Yes I suppose I have some sort of phobia.

Well Hank I’m guessing you’d have a problem with my female Urologist.

Rob

 

[Reynolds]

At the VA, I had a female Doctor - Squire - when can I come to confession?

I had a very pretty young female Dr. Do my Dot physical. I was hoping nothing came up during the hernia exam. That was not nearly as awkward as when my ex girlfriend did the ultrasound on my testicles. It is what it is, no need to cause a fuss.

 

[HankD]

Well Hank I’m guessing you’d have a problem with my female Urologist.

Rob

No, I guess I'm a homophobe, i have no problem with women doctors seeing and/or examining my plumbing.

Three years ago I had a Dr appointment (an Asian Indian).
She asked me if it was OK if a fellow doctor could assist/learn.
Also a woman (also Indian). I said OK.
However when she came back in with her assistant I was amazed nearly shocked.

She appeared to be a child, a teenager, I inquired about her youth and was told she is older than she looks.
Later I was told she was a child prodigy - supposedly an adult. The young lady asked if it was OK for her to assist.
I asked her if she was a "real" doctor, she said yes so I said OK,

I had a very strong suspicion that I was the first adult male she had ever treated.

I felt no shame or guilt about being treated by two women professionals.

 

[rsr]

My late wife had two wonderful male OB/GYNs. No complaint from her.

My daughter had a female OB/GYN. No complaints.

I have dealt with many, many female nurses/nurse practitioners. I've downed my pants for them. I'm sure it was not especially gratifying for any of us.And the truth is that I much prefer to deal with women medical professionals than men because the men seem to think they know everything that can be known, and then some.

If a woman wants a female OB/GYN, more power to her. But please, please, do not make her feel guilty or sinful for accepting the services of a male OB/GYN.

What I find particularly upsetting about this line of discussion is that it seems to assume that men and women medical professionals cannot separate themselves from lewdness to make medical decisions. Yes, some professionals will abuse their access. Most don't.

Dr. Nassar is the poster pervert. He took advantage of his special position to abuse young women. To judge his entire profession by his crimes is equivalent to saying that no Christian ministers should be trusted because of the crimes of Roman Catholic priests and Baptist pastors.

 

[Reformed]

If a woman wants a female OB/GYN, more power to her. But please, please, do not make her feel guilty or sinful for accepting the services of a male OB/GYN.

Amen!

I have run into this uber-modesty model most often with individuals that are in the patriarchy and integrated family church movements; specifically, those aligned with the National Council of Family Integrated Churches (NCFIC) under the leadership of Scott Brown. For some reason, these people have found a niche in some churches that hold to my own doctrinal distinctives. I avoid them like the plague.

 

[Salty]

It is true that this thread is not about non-medical professionals. Medical professionals are more likely to abuse women because they see them naked. Yes, other professionals do abuse people. ...

Biblical Modesty - I am not trying to be a smart alec here -but this is an honest question.
BUT - if you were in a situation that your life literally depended on urgent
medical care - and the only Medical dr/OB dr available was a male - with no female chaperons
- would you or your husband have any reservations for that male doctor to assist you?

 

[rlvaughn]

...the men seem to think they know everything that can be known, and then some.

Been there, seen that!

Dr. Nassar is the poster pervert. He took advantage of his special position to abuse young women. To judge his entire profession by his crimes is equivalent to saying that no Christian ministers should be trusted because of the crimes of Roman Catholic priests and Baptist pastors.

Since I brought up Dr. Nassar, I will make a clarification. I agree that his entire profession shouldn't be judged by his crimes. My reason for bringing him up was to contrast to Hank's comment about plumbers and carpenters, etc. People in any profession can be and have been abusers. This will not change. But when a pervert is present in the profession of medicine, that deviant doctor will have more professional access and probably do much more damage (numerically) than a perverted plumber or corrupt carpenter.

 

[HankD]

Been there, seen that!
Since I brought up Dr. Nassar, I will make a clarification. I agree that his entire profession shouldn't be judged by his crimes. My reason for bringing him up was to contrast to Hank's comment about plumbers and carpenters, etc. People in any profession can be and have been abusers. This will not change. But when a pervert is present in the profession of medicine, that deviant doctor will have more professional access and probably do much more damage (numerically) than a perverted plumber or corrupt carpenter.

Indeed and in par with deviant "ministers".

 

[Deacon]

I have no problem with modesty per say, it has its uses.
But it has its place and time.

I think of Mark who was stripped of his clothing as he ran from the crowd arresting Jesus. The episode embarrassed him enough for him to include it in his Gospel but at the time, modesty was not of primary importance, getting away was greater.

Rob

 

[Ron Ellington]

Take a look at "Medicalpatientmodesty", at the bottom of their home read some of the links. Psychiatrists who have studied the numbers have concluded that a woman is 3 times as likely to be sexually assaulted by a doctor than walking thru the worst places in Chicago after dark. You want to take that change with your wife, that's your choice.

According to the Chicago PD, one Ob/Gyn sexually assault as many as 12,000 patients during his career. Two other doctors gang raped their intern so bad that she was placed in ICU for blood loss. Still your choice.

1 Corinthians 7:1 (Paraphrased) If a man is not married to her he's not suppose to touch her. Maybe God was right.