Modesty in Medical Settings

[PrivateWoman]

We recently had advanced CPR and AED training at our workplace. The first thing one does (after asking the questions and checking breathing) is to rip off all clothing above the waist... No time for oggling... Just get to work!

I really don't want to start a discussion here. But I had to respond to this. I believe it is inappropriate for them to say you must automatically rip off clothes above the waist. It would not matter for men of course. But there are a number of women who don't want you to rip off their clothes above the waist. It is not always necessary to rip off shirt. CPR can be done on some women with a shirt actually.

I read somewhere about how bold Dr. Talmage, the fouding president of Foundations Bible College was after his wife had a car accident. About twenty years ago, Dr. O. Talmadge Spence, President of Foundations Bible College, told the story of an automobile accident in WV that left his wife injured and unconscious. Dr. Spence asked the emergency medical personnel to do all that they could for his wife but he wanted her dignity and modesty preserved. He asked them specifically not to remove her clothing. They said: "Get out of our way, we are medical personnel, we know what we're doing, and modesty is not our main concern." Dr. Spence persisted until the investigating highway patrolman intervened and said, "You folks do exactly as the Reverend says!" At the ER, Dr. Spence repeated his request and they complied.

As for people who don't want certain parts of their spouse's body or their body to be exposed to opposite sex or medical professionals, they have the right to request same gender doctors/nurses.

 

[rbell]

I read somewhere about how bold Dr. Talmage, the fouding president of Foundations Bible College was after his wife had a car accident. About twenty years ago, Dr. O. Talmadge Spence, President of Foundations Bible College, told the story of an automobile accident in WV that left his wife injured and unconscious. Dr. Spence asked the emergency medical personnel to do all that they could for his wife but he wanted her dignity and modesty preserved. He asked them specifically not to remove her clothing. They said: "Get out of our way, we are medical personnel, we know what we're doing, and modesty is not our main concern." Dr. Spence persisted until the investigating highway patrolman intervened and said, "You folks do exactly as the Reverend says!" At the ER, Dr. Spence repeated his request and they complied.

As for people who don't want certain parts of their spouse's body or their body to be exposed to opposite sex or medical professionals, they have the right to request same gender doctors/nurses.

There's a middle ground here. I would question the wisdom of anyone in a trauma situation more concerned about covering up than the possible threat to life and health.

In an office setting--that's one thing. Even there, one needs to be realistic. But on the scene of a serious accident, with an unconscious patient in an emergency/trauma situation--IMO that's not the time or place to make a stand and hamper the very people who are trying to save your wife's life.

Had Dr. Spence lost his wife, I wonder if he would have softened his stance a bit so that his life's partner might have been spared. I think I know what the answer to that would be.

EDIT: One concession--we don't always act rationally in traumatic situations. His response might not have been one that was rational; rather, it could have been the actions of a man who was (quite understandably) upset and not entirely rational). I probably should make that concession up-front.

 

[glfredrick]

There is a good chance that a person having a heart attack requiring CPR won't give a hoot if they are exposed or not. The actions of performing CPR will likely shatter a few ribs in any case, and most people that get to that place don't live through the experience.

The use of an AED (electro-shock treatment) REQUIRES the removal of clothing. Anything that could hinder the shock or transmit the electrical pulses to some other point except for directly through the heart muscle would be fatal instead of life-saving.

 

[abcgrad94]

I really don't want to start a discussion here. But I had to respond to this. I believe it is inappropriate for them to say you must automatically rip off clothes above the waist. It would not matter for men of course. But there are a number of women who don't want you to rip off their clothes above the waist. It is not always necessary to rip off shirt. CPR can be done on some women with a shirt actually.

I've worked in hospitals and have been CPR certified, etc. In fact, I had planned to become a nurse, until marriage and kids happened. So, I know what I'm talking about here.

From an EMT's standpoint, it is MUCH easier just to remove clothing than waste precious minutes trying to decide whether or not treatment can be done with the clothing on. On the scene of a car accident, for example, an EMT must quickly determine the ABC's--Airway, Breathing, and Circulation. In addition, they will check for other injuries. Think about it. If you've been thrown from a car, you could have landed on anything--glass, car parts, you name it. Objects can pierce the clothing and body and sometimes the only way to determine this is to remove the clothing. Also, bleeding can make your clothes stick to your skin and become difficult and painful to remove later. From the medical viewpoint, yes, the clothes should come off.

I think it's silly to paint all medical personnel as lustful beasts who cannot wait to rip off a woman's clothing. If you'd feel more comfortable requesting a same-gender doctor and are in a position to do so, fine. But God is not going to judge you or the EMT/doctor trying to save your life simply because you remove your clothes.

 

[Jim1999]

Is exposing the body the problem here? Doctors have been before nude bodies long before they applied band aids to wounds.

We are not talking about a bloke walking down the street and a woman slipping her blouse down further than she normally exposes herself.......duh! cor! Every pastor knows what it is to look down from pulpit in to-day's culture and have to look away. Maybe only short pastors should be called!

And one troubles about medical people exposing the body for medical reasons?

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Scarlett O.]

Aw, drats!!!!! I did it again. (ERASE!!)

Pray that I do not come to this thread again.

 

[abcgrad94]

I can just see this notice posted on the wall of the hospital:
Please tell your physician in advance if you'd rather be modest, or dead. We will do our best to comply with your wishes.:laugh:

Or this one:
Please notify us of your preference--to die naturally of complications caused by excessive modesty or to die of extreme embarrassment due to a lack of bodily coverage. We believe in patient rights!

For the OP--please do not take offense as I don't mean this personally against you. I'm just seeing the humor in the situation.

 

[jaigner]

This kind of modesty is a warped, misguided off-shoot of the actual concept. Modesty has very little to do with nudity and a lot to do with the heart. If you want a same-sex doctor, that's fine. But it's a physician's job to examine and diagnose people's bodies, which in some cases is impossible with clothes on.

If a female doctor is working on saving my life or getting me healthy, she can see whatever she needs to.

 

[Alcott]

The use of an AED (electro-shock treatment) REQUIRES the removal of clothing. Anything that could hinder the shock or transmit the electrical pulses to some other point except for directly through the heart muscle would be fatal instead of life-saving.

We have recently had first aid/CPR/AED classes for certification, and it's an appalling prospect for us non-pros to think about actually having to carry out CPR or AED. Since I don't think the average person would do it right anyway, I question any advantage of removing a woman's shirt and brassiere for CPR. But if pulse and respiration have stopped and the AED is available, yes, this must be done. Any metal would result in a serious burn, and the pads must be placed in reasonably precise locations for the machine to evaluate, and possibly deliver the shock. And if the site should be a wet surface of any type, everyone there would get a shock. But fortunately, in Texas, non-pros are covered by the "Good Samaritan Law," which states that there is no liability for an attempt at rendering aid to an injured or unconscious person if done in good faith. But UNfortunately, I have also been in such classes where they tell us that, because doctors are not covered under such a law, that a doctor would probably not consider trying to help someone who has passed out-- the person may be dead already and the doctor liable for not preventing it.

But to the subject of the thread, I cannot imagine that a couple of bosoms, which are such standard equipment of human beings, can or should make the difference in any life-saving endeavor. That compares to Jehovah's Witnesses and their refusal to take blood transfusions... the symbol is not more important than what it symbolizes. Blood is not more important than life itself, and neither is modesty.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

I am a 40yr old male. I was in an emergency exam room for a heatstroke a few weeks ago. My mother, wife, & nurses were in the room at the time. I was in extreme pain & was unable to remove any of my clothing. I told them to cut everything off of me. There are times in one's life when modesty takes a backseat to reality.

Christ was naked as He hung on the cross, and I don't recall reading where that was of primary concern to Him. It was actually appropriate for the situation. (God knows that I do not mean that as lightly as it may sound)

 

[jaigner]

But to the subject of the thread, I cannot imagine that a couple of bosoms, which are such standard equipment of human beings, can or should make the difference in any life-saving endeavor. That compares to Jehovah's Witnesses and their refusal to take blood transfusions... the symbol is not more important than what it symbolizes. Blood is not more important than life itself, and neither is modesty.

Ooooohhh...love the talk about symbols. A body is a body. Big deal!

Big thumbs up.

And bonus points for using the word "brassiere."

 

[Melanie]

I think the thread has divided somewhat....

In case of emergency, bleeding, stopped heart or what have you few people care about their state of clothing or modesty.

The original question I thought was in controlled situations where very intimate proceedures are required. For me as a nurse to sally forth and do anything requiring touch or more is in fact assault if permission is not asked for and given by the patient or significant other. There are some special excemptions to this rule. Where I live and work medicine has become a product that is bought and sold, you the consumer have the purchasing power and a bunch of options to complain.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Christ was naked as He hung on the cross, and I don't recall reading where that was of primary concern to Him. It was actually appropriate for the situation. (God knows that I do not mean that as lightly as it may sound)

That's a fantastic point!

 

[abcgrad94]

For me as a nurse to sally forth and do anything requiring touch or more is in fact assault if permission is not asked for and given by the patient or significant other. There are some special excemptions to this rule. Where I live and work medicine has become a product that is bought and sold, you the consumer have the purchasing power and a bunch of options to complain.

Right. Which is why I don't understand why some people have such an issue with this.

 

[jaigner]

I think the issue for most of us is not that people don't have the right to consent for something like this, but rather that they find it such a huge issue. I'm not going to disrobe unless it's necessary, but if it is, there goes my pride. Just fix me.

 

[Amy.G]

Anyone's wishes should be respected, even if they're silly.

Hopefully most people are in the medical field because they enjoy practicing medicine, not because they get all hot and bothered by looking for diseases in people's personal places.

No disrespect Gina, but some people have reasons for not wanting a person of the opposite sex examining them. Some have been abused. Maybe it's silly to you & others, but for the one who has suffered sexual abuse it isn't silly at all.

I guess those of you who think it's silly to choose a female dr. have thankfully never suffered at the hands of an abuser.

 

[abcgrad94]

No disrespect Gina, but some people have reasons for not wanting a person of the opposite sex examining them. Some have been abused. Maybe it's silly to you & others, but for the one who has suffered sexual abuse it isn't silly at all.

I guess those of you who think it's silly to choose a female dr. have thankfully never suffered at the hands of an abuser.

Oh Amy, I would not ridicule anyone their choice of doctor if this were the reason. Not at all. And you'd be surprised at how many abused woman have been able to overcome their fear/discomfort of a male physician.

My experience is that people who have extreme views on modesty believe it's actually a SIN for anyone to see them unclothed for any reason, besides their spouse. I even have family members who are very self-righteous and judgmental about it, to the point of calling others ungodly.

 

[Gina B]

No disrespect Gina, but some people have reasons for not wanting a person of the opposite sex examining them. Some have been abused. Maybe it's silly to you & others, but for the one who has suffered sexual abuse it isn't silly at all.

I guess those of you who think it's silly to choose a female dr. have thankfully never suffered at the hands of an abuser.

There are SO many things I'd love to say to you right this second but must refrain out of common decency.

I'll just leave you with this little thought: The sentence reads " EVEN IF the reason is silly," and in no way states all reasons are.

 

[Scarlett O.]

No disrespect Gina, but some people have reasons for not wanting a person of the opposite sex examining them. Some have been abused. Maybe it's silly to you & others, but for the one who has suffered sexual abuse it isn't silly at all.

I guess those of you who think it's silly to choose a female dr. have thankfully never suffered at the hands of an abuser.

Oh, Amy, as someone who was molested as a child, myself, I would never consider the desire of the abused to see a same gender doctor as silly. And I assure you, that's not what Gina B. meant.

 

[mcdirector]

I had a woman doctor for years and then she retired. I had a hard time finding another but I eventually did. What I like best about women doctors does not have to do with the modesty issue (although I do understand that). Going to the doctor is often uncomfortable, but in my experience, the women have been better listeners to all I had to say and not just the first symptom.