Modesty

Oh man....I said I wouldn't come back here. DonnA I have agreed with the majority of your posts so far. But I beg to differ on this one. You make it sound so easy. Sometimes being too overconfident can come back to bite you. Some people fit the description of what the world finds appealing, and that makes them even more of a target for Satan. Anyone is at risk.

 

So do you believe
we do not have the power of God in us through the indwelling Holy Spirit
or
that even though that power is there in us, it is not strong enough to conquer our sinful thoughts
???
Sinful thoughts enter our minds, we chose to entertain them or throw them away, they are not stronger then the God who live sin us.

 

I'm going to have to agree with Joe on this one... if you were a guy you would understand better. But since you are not, there's no way that you would ever understand why we have a problem when an incredibly nice looking half-oriental college-aged girl goes to church with low-rider pants on and a shirt just short enough that the tattoo on her lower back is visible. I mean, come on. Sure we can catch ourselves and force ourselves to look elsewhere and to think about something else, but if this sight enters our field of vision, we are hardwired to check it out, it's just instantaneous. With that in mind, girls really need to watch what they wear, especially at church. There's no reason that we should have to fight through that kind of temptation at church.

 

We are hardwired to look, no question. But, does merely looking at her mean that I'm lusting after her? Where is the line drawn between noticing that the woman is attractive and lusting after her? I know where mine is and I don't believe that just noticing her means that I'm lusting after her.

I submit that merely looking at her is not the issue. Lusting after her runs deeper than just noticing that she's attractive.

 

Given the outfit and tattoo I described... the attention and looks weren't exactly directed at her face, if you know what I mean. Is it even possible to check out a girl's rear end and dismiss doing such a thing as simply innocently noticing that she is attractive? I've even seen this particular girl in the church gym playing with a kid on all fours with her back arched provocatively with her shirt slipped WAY up, and don't forget the tattoo. There's no way that a healthy man can see such a thing then just say "oh I was just noticing that she was attractive". No way, even if it was just for a split second. At least I'll admit it. Be careful not to fool yourself.

As I said before, even though that was quite a sight, there's no reason that we should have to fight off that kind of temptation while at church. If women would ever stop to think about this, they should realize that they shouldn't dress in this manner, at least not in church. No amount of justification based on "well men can choose to look/lust or not" is going to cut it, because the fact of the manner is that dressing in this manner is in fact done so with the purpose of attracting attention and provoking these thoughts, and believe me... it will work.

Women can still be extremely nice looking and dress very nicely and comfortably yet avoid a look that easily provokes bad thoughts and STILL be noticed as being attractive, but low-cut tight denim pants with high cut shirts and a tattoo and crawling on your all-fours while dressed in this manner doesn't exactly fall under that description, along with many other things that women shouldn't be wearing to church.

 

The tattood woman you describe would not turn me on whatsoever

She's too young, and acts very immature from reading your post

 

Nope, this straw man is of your own contruction when you replied to a question I asked someone else:

I then asked you for clarification, because I really couldn't believe that you would make a weak brother/sister the one with the authority to tell someone else how to dress:

Now, please clarify what I asked you, without accusing me of creating strawmen. I asked who has the authority to tell another what to wear? I did not ask who is allowed to tell someone that their clothing offends them. Only who has authority over another on the issue of modesty.

 

posted in error

 

Hi DonnA
I agree with corndoggy, if you were male, you would probably better understand this. I believe the holy spirit assists us in making decisions, it may or may not be powerful enough to prevent thoughts from being entertained. Upon prayer, it's god's decision whether to "fuel" the thought, or remove it as requested.
I compare these intense feelings to lightening striking your pants. . The men on this board who blame females attire continuously appear to know well what the lightening feels like. For some, their judgement is so clouded by this engulfing feeling they assume it can't JUST be a females clothing attire causing it, it's so REAL. So they read into someone's attire to such a point they describe the immodest clothed female as flaunting, provacative, etc...words which are equated in our society with the ACTIONS of a prostitute or stripper. Woman may dress that way for attention, but it is not necessarily to enduce provocative thoughts. The holy spirit is strong to combat these feelings, but due to our fallen nature, we wil do just that. And that's fine, it's how god made us.

 

I agree with the above for the most part, but some things are just too obvious. Low rider tight jeans on girls have no place in church. If you have to wonder if your crack is showing, then you shouldn't have worn it there to begin with. You know better. Showing tattoos that are only visible if you wear such low riding pants is just wrong, you're just trying to show how much of a freak you are. But yes, otherwise, I think alot of dudes just make excuses. Normally, clothing isn't so over the top that we should feel the need to place all (or even any) of the blame on the women. It's extremely rare that I see anything that I would consider too provocative to be in church.

 

We loosely use the word lusting
A better term is eye candy

 

I agree completely:thumbs:

 

Isn't the point corndoggy was making was that what some people, men or women, wear -- to church or any other place, actually -- cause those who see them to divert their attention to them? In church, that would be diverting attention away from God to someone in church, and not because of their praise or worship! In public maybe it causes a man to divert attention from his wife or children who may be speaking to him. It can cause me, a woman, to almost pop my eyes sometimes and cringe in embarrassment at some of what I see. I have no idea, many times, if the person is Christian or non-Christian, but I do know that even as a woman (maybe I'm getting old???), I can be brought almost to a shocked standstill by some of what I see others wearing.

When some of this appears in church, no wonder some of the men in particular, object. They are there to keep their minds on God, not to be challenged to do so by others in that same church!

Those of you who have seen me post here through the years know that I am not talking about women in pants and such. My basic 'uniform' is jeans and a t-shirt in the summer or sweatshirt in the winter around the home. and nice pants at church, as far as I'm concerned, are just fine.

But like some of the men here, I have a problem, personally, with those who regularly attend the church (NOT talking about visitors), who dress in such a way as to challenge others to try to keep their mind on our Lord.

This can include, by the way, immodest dress, overly fancy dress, and sometimes just plain weird dress. Isn't part of basic modesty simply meaning dressing so as not to offend or distract people unnecessarily? This does not mean that the weakest person is the judge of what is proper, as already mentioned in this thread, but that simple good taste and basic modesty are known in each culture and should be followed when one is in that culture.

Just my two cents' worth....

Interesting thread, by the way.

 

so who hardwired you that way? Did God? Is it sin? Or not?

 

I'd like to respond to corndoggy's situation with the attractive young lady with the bare middrift and the tattoo.

Does the Bible provide us with a method of dealing with a brother (or sister) that offends us? While it is probably not a god idea for Corndoggy (a man) to approach this young lady directly, especially if she is a teen, there must be someone in authority over her that he can approach. A Sunday school teacher, her father, or if all else fails the pastor, who could approach this young lady about her dress. She probably has no idea what kind of effect she is having on you.

Sexuality is something that is not being taught in our churches(or at least not to the teens at my church). You can't have conversations on modesty without having conversations about sexuality. We have convesations on dress without telling why. We have conversations on holy relationships without telling why.

99% of our young females only understand that dressing the way the world tells them to dress will attract male attention without understanding the absolute phyical reaction of the male body. Female bodies for the most part, don't react that way; not on the magnitude of the male body; not just from seeing a little male skin with a tattoo on it. This is what Paul was telling the more mature ladies to teach the younger ones, but I'm afraid this is not happening. To many of our churches and families are ignoring the issues of sexuality and therefore modesty is becoming a bigger issue than it needs to be. Why? Not necessarily because we've forgotten about modesty, but because we've ignored the issue of sexuality and the only instruction our young people are getting on the subject is from the world.

When and if corndoggy chooses to bring this subject to the attention of the young lady, whoever does the talking should NOT just say "you gotta quit dressing this way cause there have been complaints". That is where Joe's pastor made the mistake. He put this very new Christian on the defensive for something she had no idea might offend.

Instead, the young lady should be approached gently and with love. She needs to be made to understand the physical effect she has on the male body and that it isn't necessarily her fault (this isn't a blame game). She needs to be helped to realize that there are difinate steps she can make to help another not be tempted to sin. And that the person that is having the problem is also taking steps to deal with his own supceptability to temptation. This is a topic that her mother should be dealing with, but an older, wiser woman who this girl respects and who isn't afraid of dealing with sexual issues, could also be a good choice. Or perhaps this subject could be dealt with in a more general way with a good SS lesson(or more).

 

I'm not explaining myself as well as I should, I guess. Here are the scenarios.

Scenario #1
A very attractive woman comes into church and I see that she's dressed inappropriately. I don't let myself look at her a 2nd time, or a 3rd time, or let my eyes linger on her.

Scenario #2
A very attractive woman comes into church and I see that she's dressed inappropriately. I look at her best features again and again.

Under which of these scenarios did I lust after her? I say that I did in scenario #2, but not scenario #1.

I am a healthy man and looking at an attractive woman for a split second doesn't mean that I lust after her. Lusting comes after a 2nd look, a 3rd look, etc.

I posted Matthew 5:28 for a reason.

 

I was thinking along the same lines.

As a man, I’m also hard wired as a father and as a Christian hardwired with spiritual strength. I may not be old enough to be a father to some of the women that are strutting their stuff, but always consider they are someone’s daughter; and I think that as a father, or a brother for that matter, that is how I should look at them; in turn that is how I expect another Christian man to look at my daughter or sister!

If it is seen that the woman presents a sexual suggestiveness, then, it is I that needs to get or stay right, especially if I where bothered beyond controlling my thoughts by it in the darkness of temptation, it should quickly be reevaluated and thought of from a perspective of being a father, elder, or brother to her in a godly light; if I can not come to that thought then it is me that has the issue and is immature in my walk and should be my first priority, a perception of myself to prayerfully address. To put the responsibility on her reminds me of a log in the eye or the treasure in the heart that comes forth from being evil.

At a Christmas party a co-worker of my wife suddenly and proudly showed me her new backside tattoo, in which my response was, “You know, that decoration is going to be above your tail forever…even when you are old and in a nursing home! What are the nurses going to think?” It was not, gasp! you shocked this Christian boy into sinful thoughts and judgments!

I can’t think of a better way be a witness in this situation to a woman of the love of God than to show being past these thoughts and judgments to that woman, with confidence and conviction. Truly, I wonder if I could look in the direction of a totally naked woman and think only of what a beautifully designed creature God has made, or not, as I could see myself critiquing her conditioning of what she was given, :tongue3: maybe this might even be my bigger weakness toward judgment, but regardless, I would hope I could cope with the situation. I’m sure I have my limitations especially with added provocative poses or eye batting looks, but again, if so, I hope my conviction would be to look away, look up, and then dealing with any temptation with spiritually guided maturity be able to carry on with being a witness, not showing fear, but confidence.

 

Well, can animals other than humans sin? Is it sin that causes a buck to chase after a doe during the rut? Is it sin that causes a mature and very careful buck to act careless and crazy during this time? It's the same thing. We can lean on God to catch ourselves doing this and try to overcome it, but the underlying wiring will never change, it's just the nature of things. Humans are mammals too, it's all the same. I don't believe that you can label this initial reaction as "sin" unless you are able to say that it's sin that causes ALL mammals to act in this same manner. If you can, that's great, good for you.