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Modesty

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by gerald285, Dec 30, 2006.

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  1. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Or a legalist, perhaps? Well put, Magnetic Poles! Who would waste the time to find that on their own, that didn't have too much free time?

    Ed
     
    #61 EdSutton, Dec 31, 2006
  2. Joe

    Joe New Member

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    Aw c'mon now Ed! My wife wants to trade pictures with you :D
     
    #62 Joe, Dec 31, 2006
  3. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr. Active Member

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    Modesty...well..let's see

    Modesty huh? Well,in the world I live in and sadly even the church I attend true modesty both in appearance (male & female) AND attitude is fast becoming a thing of the past. I will be posting my personal OPINION about this but it comes from my own personal perspective after living (sadly and regrettably)a life that was marred by immoral behavior both in my family and in my own life.It is something I may even be a bit over-sensitive too(if that is even possible) since the "lust of the flesh" and the "lust of the eyes" seem to be two of the biggest things the devil can (and does) trip people up with (both before AND AFTER SALVATION). Ladies who insist on dressing (or undressing as the case may be) to overemphasize their shape and appearance are commiting SIN that may even cause the godliest of men to be tripped up by satan. Men for their part need to learn how to aim their eyes so as not to give place to the devil.Men also need to be careful not to wear things that are too tight or revealing as well for the same reason. The "pride of life" causes men and women to "show off" and selfishly try to draw attention to themselves. Men and women.....NUDITY is just that...NUDITY....and from the garden of Eden til now God has expected us to COVER UP our bodies in a modest fashion so as to not cause each other to sin by falling to the lusts of our flesh. Ladies...if you wear skin-tight jeans/pants (or dresses for that matter) OR a long form-fitting dress that is slit halfway up to your...(well you know) then you are sinning against God and being a stumbling block to the men and younger women around you. And we won't even discuss a "bathing suit of ANY description. There is no such thing as a modest bathing suit. NOT POSSIBLE. Men..cover yourself up as well and wear things that are loose fitting and fully covering. I have personally overheard lost women in the workplace talking about the appearance of the men that they desired and yes.....how a man dresses does get their attention.In any case,IF the Holy Spirit of our God does indeed INDWELL us we should NOT have a problem discerning right from wrong in this matter. We just need to be honest about it and surrendered to the Lord in such a way that the only important thing is the truth as stated in Titus 2:11-14...that being that we should live soberly,righteously and godly in this present world in view of the return of the Lord Jesus. We just need to quit making excuses for our sin and be faithful to the Lord. God Bless You.

    Greg Perry Sr.
     
    #63 Gregory Perry Sr., Dec 31, 2006
  4. gerald285

    gerald285 New Member

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    It is clear that you cannot grasp the issue but are totally confused. :confused:

     
    #64 gerald285, Dec 31, 2006
  5. gerald285

    gerald285 New Member

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    A BIG AMEN Greg
    I would suggest however taking a look at some modest swim wear here;
    http://www.wholesomewear.com/

    http://www.freewebs.com/swimwear_solutions/

    :thumbs:

     
    #65 gerald285, Dec 31, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2006
  6. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    I know I shouldn't come back but......

    Gerald, can you not see that this can only be one man's or woman's opinion as to the eroticism of certain clothing? Are you serious? We're they? Am I even allowed to use the word eroticism on this board? On what scientific theory or studies were these "recommendations" based. On what scripture? Is there any basis for this tripe?

    Oh, and one more thing, why was it a woman's body used in those examples? Does modesty not also apply to a man?

    And Ed wonders why I think you might be a troll. I've seen these sites before, it was always a troll that brought them up:


    Gerald, one serious question here. Who made you the modesty authority? What makes your opinion on modesty any more valid than the opinions of anyone else on this site?
     
    #66 menageriekeeper, Dec 31, 2006
  7. Joe

    Joe New Member

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    Amen Gregory :thumbs: A very well written post. I only question this statement
    "In any case,IF the Holy Spirit of our God does indeed INDWELL us we should NOT have a problem discerning right from wrong in this matter"

    Because someone has challenges (in your opinion) discerning right from wrong (in dress) doesn't equal them not having the holy spirit indwelled inside of them" . I don't believe the bible backs this up either but it can be your opinion.

    Blessings to you,

    Joe
     
    #67 Joe, Dec 31, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2006
  8. Joe

    Joe New Member

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    Yes, MK I agree. It does apply to a man. I used graphic references of the sort to compare the two to give balance but my words were replaced with "remark removed". Maybe I could have word it not so bluntly
     
    #68 Joe, Dec 31, 2006
  9. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Joe, the mods will do what they think is best. This is a family site after all and we wouldn't want things on here that we wouldn't want our children to read. Blunt words can be used, but not if they are a directed attack on a person and not if the language is considered crude. This is why I questioned my own word usage in my last post. If I get edited I'll take it as direction from the powers that be and curb my language.
     
    #69 menageriekeeper, Dec 31, 2006
  10. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr. Active Member

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    Gotta stand by my remark...

    Joe,
    I mean no malice in my remark about the indwelling Holy Spirit. I will have to stand by it though because God is not the author of confusion. The only confusion that ever exists on any issue...this one included...is in the minds of men(and women) and is a result of the degree of submission/sensitivity (or LACK thereof)each of us has towards the leading/teaching/surrender to the indwelling Spirit of God. The problem is US....not the truth.Truth is truth and never changes. God Bless you my Brother.
    Also....Gerald...thanks for the links you sent in regards to modest swimwear. I forwarded them to my wife's Email and also to my pastor. I have to admit....those suits were pretty modest appearing...a far cry from the immodest string "things" most would wear these days. Folks...we just need to live our lives in such a way as to give the Lord the benefit of the doubt in any thing we say or do. We ought to WANT to be pleasing to Him regardless of how pleasing we are to ourselves OR each other. God deserves our devotion and faithfulness.This is NOT legalism as some would suppose...it is all about HIM.....not us.Now if anyone can refute that Biblically,I'll stand corrected.

    Blessings,
    Greg Perry Sr.:saint: :type:
     
    #70 Gregory Perry Sr., Dec 31, 2006
  11. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Greg, I totally agree with your post and we've already covered that ground. But in the absence of scripture, who is the modesty authority? You? Me? Gerald?????

    My point is that how one dresses is not the sole indicator of whether or not one is saved or indwelled by the Holy Spirit. We are all on a journey. At the end of the journey is spiritual maturity, oneness with God through Christ the Son. But right now we are all at different spots on the path. What the Spirit leads you to do at your level of spiritual maturity may be very different from what He leads me to do at my level of growth. We can't just throw out the comment that you don't dress right so you must not be saved, because very likely that is a lie. We can't see the heart so we shouldn't be judging folk's salvation based solely on outward appearance. We can't discern the true condition of the heart of another.
     
    #71 menageriekeeper, Dec 31, 2006
  12. gerald285

    gerald285 New Member

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    Hello menageriekeeper,
    yes modesty does also apply to a man also, however it is the women that the bible speaks to on this subject. Godly women will seek this out and ungodly women will debate against it.

     
    #72 gerald285, Dec 31, 2006
  13. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Gerald, try answering my questions.

    Attacking my Godliness doesn't answer the questions. I must not be Godly because my definition of modesty doesn't match Gerald's and I don't mind disagreeing with him in a debate forum. Huh, I missed that passage during my Bible reading this morning. You should know, I'm not relying on my own Godliness to save my soul from the wrath to come and I'm certainly not going to rely on yours! To Christ alone belongs my faith.

    OH, and if modesty applies also to men, why are you railing againt supposed womanly immodesty instead of making sure of your own? Go find some of those young fellas that have their britches hanging down to their knees and have a chat with them.
     
    #73 menageriekeeper, Dec 31, 2006
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  14. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    No, I just think this is rather extreme 'legalism' which has been around since long before the days the Lord Jesus Christ walked the earth, and I believe He, Paul, and James all had something to say on the subject of 'legalism'. A legalist expects to have his or her way, and expects everyone else to do the same. (Think about it!)
    The idea of 'troll' and the Internet is somewhat later, and I merely saw no reason to call a' legalist' a 'troll'.




    The modus operandi of legalism. Watch out for the 'clothing police'!

    Ed
     
    #74 EdSutton, Dec 31, 2006
  15. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Well, I wasn't going to get involved in this debate (again :tonofbricks: ), but I couldn't let this one go. I've heard this before, "it's the women that the Bible speaks to." Well, that's true, but you people always leave out what our Lord said to MEN,
    Matthew 5:28 "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
    All of us "ungodly" women as you stated are not debating against modesty. We are debating against your narrow minded, legalistic double standard.
     
    #75 Amy.G, Dec 31, 2006
  16. gerald285

    gerald285 New Member

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    Actually the bible says that we can know the heart. It is our own hearts that will deceive us, but we can discern the hearts of others according to the Lord. That is if one believes the Lord!

    Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

    Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

    Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

    Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    It is true that a person can look and act like a Christian for a time and have an evil heart, but they will be exposed in time. However it is not true that a person live evil and have a pure heart.

    Act 19:18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.

    True believers are changed, old things pass away and all things become new, plain and simple. Women who hold to immodest clothing are not seeking God, but self gratification. They are still in rebellion and that means that thye hhave not repented. The same would apply to a man, but again scriptrue deals with the women on the modesty issue since they hold a greater responsibility in this area.

    You asked this;
    "My point is that how one dresses is not the sole indicator of whether or not one is saved or indwelled by the Holy Spirit."

    I suppose one could ask how is it an indicator if someone is saved or lost simply because they continue to comitt adultry? Perahps they just need to mature a little! :laugh: However scripture is clear and gives a list of those who will not be in heaven no matter what they claim unless they repent. In the case of immodest clothing all one has to do is ask why is she dressed that way. Is it to show true godliness (point others to a holy God) or flaunt herself. Women have a natural draw from men and the Lord knew this making it necessary to give scripture on it. A Christian woman will want to honor her Lord, her self, and her brothers in this area. That means taking extra steps not too draw attention to her body parts that tempt. That is if she is a real Christian.

    One more thing about judging the heart solely on how one covers themself. It has been my experience that if a woman clothes herself in an immodest manner you will alsways find that there are several if not many other things that point to her unsaved condition. Keep in mind the warning of 1John

    1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is
    1Jo 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure

    Immodesty is not purity.

    I will say the same applies to a man. I run into may who profess Christ, but their language says different. If he does not control his language you will find that he has many other things that witness to his lostness. Remember "Many will say, LORD! LORD! and hear I never knew you. I am afraid that what most people are hearing and seeing today in the church's has nothing to do with the Christian faith. They have ears that need tickled and that is what they get.





     
    #76 gerald285, Dec 31, 2006
  17. donnA

    donnA Active Member

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    If you ask me, this is getting ridiculous, judging people's salvation, pretending to know what only God knows, I think some of you are going to be surprised when you get to heaven one at the people who are there.
    And you ahve no right to tell anyone what they can or can not wear, your trying to do the Holy Spirit's job of conviction, and changing of the heart, man made heart changes is not God made heart changes, and has no value or endurance. Some people are so legalistic they refuse to understand that God does the growing and He does it differently and at different rates in different people, we are not carbon copies, thank God.
     
    #77 donnA, Dec 31, 2006
  18. gerald285

    gerald285 New Member

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    Actually pointing out what godliness is is necessary today. You make that point clear. As for comfronting young men I do IF they claim to be Christians and their pants are hanging low. We are to be no respector of persons as our Lord.
    Finally we are in complete agreement that faith alone saves, but simply believing the facts about Jesus is not faith. The evidence of true biblical faith is holiness which without no one will see the Lord.

    Hbr 12:14 Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

    So all one has to do is ask themselves, do I desire and seek holiness no matter the cost to me, or do I find that such turns we off. True believers seek holiness. Yes we fail at times, but we continue to seek for it and we do not rebell at confrontation of a particullar lifestyle that we might do out of ignorance, but rather praise our Lord and master for sending us light.
    .
     
    #78 gerald285, Dec 31, 2006
  19. gerald285

    gerald285 New Member

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    hello Donna,
    your claim is a common one today, but I am afraid it is not biblical. I would ask you to show me in scripture where the Spirit works different (at different rates) in different people. The change of heart you mentioned is total and at salvation. It is not some kind of gradually changing as you assert;

    Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

    Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

    2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    As you can see we are new creatures with new hearts. Not old creatures with hearts being changed gradually.
    My point is the very thing that you are trying to pose. Many todayy who claim salvation are not saved. What we are seing and hearing in the pulpits today is not true biblical Chrisatianity. We have been told that this would happen and it is. The thing to do is not rebell further, but open our hearts and take the test that the Spirit of God gave us un scripture.

    2Cr 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

    The next question should be, HOW!
    The bible gives that answer;
    2Cr 13:8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

    true believers seek truth. They do not stand against it or try and make it seem out of date. I also have a salvation test on my web site called "salvation tests". We all need to examine ourselves with scripture and not be so foolish that we try and examine ourselves by our own hearts which are;

    Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

    This is not saying that you cannot know anothers heart, but that we cannot know our own hearts. We are born liars who lies even to ourselves and such will cost us our souls. The only test for our spiritual condition is our lifestyles.

    1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    Women who knowingly temp men by there clothing or lack of it do not love their brothers. As cain said: "Am my brothers keeper?" The answer is yes for true believers.

    1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
    It is not grievous to dress in a modest fasion for a true believer, but it is for a lost person because they still claim their rights.

    Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    Notice the last verse. You cannot have faith if you are not a commandment keeper. So on the issue of modesty. Scripture deals with the women about it and speaking on it is what the Lord desires.



     
    #79 gerald285, Dec 31, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2006
  20. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles New Member

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    No, I totally grasp that you have some weird obsession about the female form, as well as appointing yourself the arbiter and interpreter of Biblical modesty. I also would not be surprised if that web site you linked to is a parody that you have inadvertently taken seriously. Either way, in a society where women wear burquas, I imagine an ankle might seem erotic; and in a culture where women go topless, the breast is not seen as erotic at all.

    Don't be so afraid of what God has created. Seeing a little calf won't damn you to hell.
     
    #80 Magnetic Poles, Dec 31, 2006
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